What the H is a sentence?

[woodcutter]

So, I ask you once again, how do the schools survive? How is it that Berlitz is a huge company with branches all over the planet? Are you really saying that it is all a con trick? People necessarily come out of the schools screaming "I wuz robbed"?.

Linguistics is all very well, but I feel certain people use their proficiency to show off, rather than to educate. If I had to choose between an instructor with no teaching skills or with no grammatical knowledge, I would go for the latter. Especially if my own grammatical metalanguage was undeveloped, for then the explanations would be all the more difficult.

Anyway, the schools give training. One week as opposed to four. The training does not contain any advice on avoiding useful things like correction (I feel we are attempting to speed up natural learning, not ape it) because feelings may be hurt, and therefore within the framework of that school, where the students know what to expect, the teacher may be able to be more effective than more liberated rivals in other contexts.

Teachers will also do their job properly and turn up on time in a method school. That is no small thing in the world of ESL.

[lolwhites]

Well, woody, you could ask how does a certain major chain store selling PCs survive when many of it's staff know nothing about computers? They have great marketing and a brand name and do better business than the small shop down the road staffed by people who know what they're doing. If you travel on the Metro in Paris or Madrid you'll see ads for method schools all over the place. How do they survive? Good marketing. It's as simple as that.

One method school in Madrid had the reputation among teachers of being like a big bath with the taps on full and the plug left out - it kept going by replacing students as fast as it lost them.

I don't see why teachers in a method school should be more likely to turn up on time. I do see how a teacher who's has one month's training (admittedly not much) might be better prepared than one who's had one week's training in one method.

[Stephen Jones]

Two points spring to mind.

Firstly students learn despite the system.

Secondly it takes a fair amount of time for a student to find out whether he is learning or not.

I have met a couple of students who gained a reasonable standard of English through Inlingua. I have never met one who did it through Berlitz and Wall Street, though possibly their time there was a useful introduction or helped to bring back things they knew already.

[fluffyhamster]

Sorry to be going back a few pages here, but what the hell!

We are only talking here about a question such as

"Did you see the postman yesterday?"

being answered by "Yes, I saw the postman yesterday" or "Yes, he's an ugly git isn't he?", but "Yeah" being frowned on as an answer. If the first answer is slightly unnatural, that's unfortunate, but it does, as I said provide modelling.

Why do you seem to think that 'Yes, I saw the postman yesterday' is always reduced to a yobbish 'Yeah (and what are you gonna f-ing do about it?!)'? Isn't it possible to say 'Yeah' (or, indeed, 'Yes') in a pleasant way?

I insist, I swear, I vow - students from the method program do not talk generally like that outside class, they are not so silly. They are not confused, blathering idiots. (FH, Why keep talking in the abstract?) The machine like students that Duncan and Larry meet and I do not are not necessarily casualties of a method, they may simply be people who have been taught that "YOU MUST USE A FULL SENTENCE OR IT IS WRONG", and such iron fisted rule mongering about the language itself goes on in many classrooms, but not in mine. I think my technique is the very opposite of patronizing - it is an opportunity for a piece of helpful practice given with the hope that the students can see that! Constantly reminding them to do it might seem patronizing, exactly, that I do not do!

I don't myself see the difference between explicitly saying to not use a full sentence is wrong, and (implicitly) "insisting" on them, and I wouldn't be so sure that a student will be much more aware of the difference either (that is, will they ultimately realize - in their speech if not explicitly in their "appreciative" thoughts - that those hoops you made them jump through were any more useful than another approach).

I may appear to be talking in the abstract but Larry and I have also insisted etc. that we have on innumerable (i.e. at least a few ) occassions met (or imagined meeting) students who seemed to always be looking over their shoulder, or into their scarred memories, at teachers at least if not more "caring", "encouraging", supportive" etc as you, woody!

[LarryLatham]

It appears that this thread has evolved. Beginning with, "What the H is a sentence?", we have by twisted and tortured means arrived at, "What do we sentence students to in our classrooms?"

Larry Latham

[Metamorfose]

That's also what I see here, method schools advertising everywhere, football teams, other sport competitions, I can recall one which hired Mr. Terminator (I can't remember how to spell his name) to do a few commercials, normally they offer a very nice package with ilustrated books, a CD and a padnote, the school's environment is as neat and friendly as possible, some of them will hire their best students to teach for them so that they can save a lot of money, teachers just need to follow the procedure and carry on 'I like tea', 'I drink tea and coffee'...if one does like this straitjacket good for them! I would hate to work in such conditions.

There may be successful pupils at the end of the five-year-course, but thanks to their inherent quality or their luck, they had real good teachers (and kept having them for the bath's tap is on and the plug is out, paraphasing lolwhite, but here the teachers are the ones who go and come this time, sometimes students walk on Monday only to find out they've got a brand new teacher!!!!!)

People perceive English as a course like computering, where things can follow a strict pattern, I believe that in the end many people are not aware what learning a foreign language is and what it takes to achieve such goal, if they knew there would be much fewer schools around here

José

[LarryLatham]

People perceive English as a course like computering, where things can follow a strict pattern, I believe that in the end many people are not aware what learning a foreign language is and what it takes to achieve such goal, if they knew there would be much fewer schools around here

An excellent point!

Larry Latham

[metal56]

So, I ask you once again, how do the schools survive? How is it that Berlitz is a huge company with branches all over the planet? Are you really saying that it is all a con trick? People necessarily come out of the schools screaming "I wuz robbed"?.

Linguistics is all very well, but I feel certain people use their proficiency to show off, rather than to educate. If I had to choose between an instructor with no teaching skills or with no grammatical knowledge, I would go for the latter. Especially if my own grammatical metalanguage was undeveloped, for then the explanations would be all the more difficult.

Anyway, the schools give training. One week as opposed to four. The training does not contain any advice on avoiding useful things like correction (I feel we are attempting to speed up natural learning, not ape it) because feelings may be hurt, and therefore within the framework of that school, where the students know what to expect, the teacher may be able to be more effective than more liberated rivals in other contexts.

Teachers will also do their job properly and turn up on time in a method school. That is no small thing in the world of ESL.

Teachers will also do their job properly

What the hell does that mean? I've had to retrain many Berlitz types in my life. All of them are hopleless beyond rote drilling of structures. All of them!

[metal56]

For some reason, the Berlitz school in Turkey I once applied to won't leave me alone. Will you give me a reference Metal, if I go for DOS?

I must admit I got a little carried away over value for money. I would like the schools who use unqualified people to charge less, they could, and they should. However, usually they don't. Lots of people out there are prepared to pay a lot of money to study in such places. Still, would you care to explain why that is?

As I have already written here, my explanation is that you are correct, they are like conveyor belts, factory like, but capable of doing a task quickly.

If the Berlitz school is the only place using unqualified teachers in Bangkok then you have a point of some kind. Though I am no expert, I suspect, however, that there are zillions of unregulated schools. Particularly those teaching kids perhaps. If it is like that, then there is no cause to blame method schools. Anyway, people do get that one month qualification only in order to travel, and surely this is a local and political matter of only marginal relevance to a discussion about the worth of the schools.

As I have already written here, my explanation is that you are correct, they are like conveyor belts, factory like, but capable of doing a task quickly.

And that brings what? Speed brings proficient learners who can USE the language?

[woodcutter]

If what you say is correct, then running a method school must be a breeze. As long as the adverts are good then the classes provided are of no consequence. A license to print money, no less.

There may be a miniscule modicum of truth in that. Please contribute to my "Don't worry - be happy" thread! However, adverts cannot be the only reason that Berlitz has been successful. Please be reasonable......

In method schools, if the teacher slacks off then it becomes known to der management, and other people are likely to fill in. Students also often have a number of teachers, and do not have to participate a lottery in which landing up with a lazy drunkard wastes their school fee.

Metal, you say Berlitz teachers are 100% "hopeless". Sometimes your fierce style puts me in mind of the teacher trainer at my method school. He might well say the same thing about most of us, for the standards used to judge are different in different contexts.

Fluffy, "yeah or "yes", whatever, the students gets very little out of saying it. On the other point, it is not hard to tell people that they are doing special exercises in order to practice. Not hard in the slightest. Why do people pretend that it is impossible? The students you have met may not have been told that, but they could and should have been. In fact, however, as we all know, in method schools and elsewhere, teachers are often keen to force all kinds of rules into people, often because they have not considered the reality themselves. I suspect that Headway, which purports to be very natural English and yet has all the simplified grammar rules that most of you so dislike, may cause more confusion than a blatant artificial "short cut to paradise" kind of method.

[LarryLatham]

Fluffy, "yeah or "yes", whatever, the students gets very little out of saying it.

Perhaps. But I submit they get very little out of saying longer sentences as well.

On the other point, it is not hard to tell people that they are doing special exercises in order to practice.

The question is, however, "Practice what?" Any sentences given to students to practice are not likely to come up in real conversation. I will not argue that students shouldn't practice the language, but I will assert that students learn more when they're listening than when they're talking. What they should be saying, though, is not sentences but lexicalized phrases, including isolated words, institutionalized phrases, sentence heads, and idioms for starters. When they make sentences, they should be making sentences; putting words and phrases together themselves in engaged conversation...not for teacher correction, but for human interaction. Practicing making English sounds by repeating after teachers is for the most part a waste of everyone's time. Students can practice the sounds for themselves at home. It may be needed, but it's not needed in the classroom.

Larry Latham

[woodcutter]

As I said, it is a matter of making a sentence. The sentence may be original, text-book "Communicative English" style, or it may be a rephrasing of what the teacher said (a straight repetition is not going to be suitable, and the rephrasing may be tricky). Both are more valuable than yes/no.

Direct repetition has a place too, in other contexts. I think we all pretty much agreed about that, when we discussed it.

[metal56]

If what you say is correct, then running a method school must be a breeze. As long as the adverts are good then the classes provided are of no consequence. A license to print money, no less.

There may be a miniscule modicum of truth in that. Please contribute to my "Don't worry - be happy" thread! However, adverts cannot be the only reason that Berlitz has been successful. Please be reasonable......

In method schools, if the teacher slacks off then it becomes known to der management, and other people are likely to fill in. Students also often have a number of teachers, and do not have to participate a lottery in which landing up with a lazy drunkard wastes their school fee.

Metal, you say Berlitz teachers are 100% "hopeless". Sometimes your fierce style puts me in mind of the teacher trainer at my method school. He might well say the same thing about most of us, for the standards used to judge are different in different contexts.

Fluffy, "yeah or "yes", whatever, the students gets very little out of saying it. On the other point, it is not hard to tell people that they are doing special exercises in order to practice. Not hard in the slightest. Why do people pretend that it is impossible? The students you have met may not have been told that, but they could and should have been. In fact, however, as we all know, in method schools and elsewhere, teachers are often keen to force all kinds of rules into people, often because they have not considered the reality themselves. I suspect that Headway, which purports to be very natural English and yet has all the simplified grammar rules that most of you so dislike, may cause more confusion than a blatant artificial "short cut to paradise" kind of method.

Metal, you say Berlitz teachers are 100% "hopeless". Sometimes your fierce style puts me in mind of the teacher trainer at my method school. He might well say the same thing about most of us, for the standards used to judge are different in different contexts.

Try asking the people who devise the RSA programme why Berlitz teachers do not fare well on such courses.

[metal56]

I suspect that Headway, which purports to be very natural English and yet has all the simplified grammar rules that most of you so dislike, may cause more confusion than a blatant artificial "short cut to paradise" kind of method.

Now you can explain to us how Headway have been so successful for so long if students are confused by their publications.

Let's go CALLAN! Let's ignore Discourse and Conversation Analysis! Let's forget 1st , 2nd turns in dialogue! Let's teach EFLese instead of English as it is used!

Here we go ...


IS THE BOOK STANDING ON THE TABLE? No, the book isn't standing on the table, but it's lying on the table
HOW LONG DO YOU USUALLY LIE IN BED AT NIGHT FOR ? I usually lie
in bed at night for about... hours

IS IT MORE COMFORTABLE TO SLEEP LYING DOWN OR SITTING UP?/
It's more comfortable to sleep lying down than sitting up

More robotics and Wizard of Oz English? Go here:

http://gifowisko.neostrada.pl/callan/ksiazka.pdf

[metal56]

As I said, it is a matter of making a sentence. The sentence may be original, text-book "Communicative English" style, or it may be a rephrasing of what the teacher said (a straight repetition is not going to be suitable, and the rephrasing may be tricky). Both are more valuable than yes/no.

Direct repetition has a place too, in other contexts. I think we all pretty much agreed about that, when we discussed it.

Zzzzzzzzzz! ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz!! Somebody wake that student up.

DO YOU THINK THE ROADS ARE LESS DANGEROUS THESE DAYS
THAN THEY WERE IN THE PAST?

No, I don't think the roads are less dangerous these days than they were in the past, but I think they're more dangerous.

Somebody ..., Woody for example, please tell me what that "but" is doing in the above response?