Acceptable or unacceptable?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:54 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:
metal56 wrote:Are you saying that delexicalised verbs are disallowed in the kind of constructions I posted? ... Then, I can do nothing more for you except to say "go seek".
I'm not sure if I'd go that far (in saying, and thus, nor seeking either!). Why don't you tell us, metal?

Shout me later if you need other help.
Doubtless somebody can google up some evidence that some supposedly great writer (who was probably high on drugs at the time) tatooed that on on the side of a cow in pre-printing press times (when spelling was dodgier), but in the meantime, tell me honestly, where do you get examples like that from? I'm wondering if there's now a search engine called Gaga, or an American dictionary called Windup's or something somewhere.

Fluff, yet again you poo-pooh anything with is either not part of your standard dialect or of your idiolect. The use of "shout me when ..." (= call me) is very commom in BE. Is that good enough for you? As I said, I want to waste no more time on convincing you. If you don't know the use, keep an open-mind. Your usage is not the only one in existence, you know?

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:13 pm

metal56 wrote:Fluff, yet again you poo-pooh anything with is either not part of your standard dialect or of your idiolect. The use of "shout me when ..." (= call me) is very commom in BE. Is that good enough for you? As I said, I want to waste no more time on convincing you. If you don't know the use, keep an open-mind. Your usage is not the only one in existence, you know?

Nice to see what I said about all the lenghty quoting had an effect!

(Well, OK, that wasn't such a lenghty post I wrote there so I'll let you off this time).

I was joking, not seriously poo-poohing it. I don't get as nasty about "facts" as some people do on Dave's, do I? (That's probably got something to do with the fact that, as I'm often the first to admit, I don't know many incontrovertible facts!). But I can honestly hand on heart say that I don't recall ever having heard "Shout me when", so I am just puzzled (especially now) by your emphatic claim that is is 'very common in BE' (I'm from London and have a grandparent from Ireland, my dad was from Liverpool...and I've obviously met people from all over at university, or whilst travelling or teching abroad).

Anyway, sure, be like that and don't waste anymore time "trying" to convince me. Do you get like this with all your students when they just don't get something?

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:46 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:Do you get like this with all your students when they just don't get something?

Let me save you having to answer that yourself:

fluffy, pretending to be metal wrote:No, only with the stupid ones who can't follow my often brilliant, sometimes challenging but always very clear presentations!

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:10 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:
metal56 wrote:Fluff, yet again you poo-pooh anything with is either not part of your standard dialect or of your idiolect. The use of "shout me when ..." (= call me) is very commom in BE. Is that good enough for you? As I said, I want to waste no more time on convincing you. If you don't know the use, keep an open-mind. Your usage is not the only one in existence, you know?
Nice to see what I said about all the lenghty quoting had an effect! (Well, OK, that wasn't such a lenghty post I wrote there so I'll let you off this time).

I was joking, not seriously poo-poohing it. I don't get as nasty about "facts" as some people do on Dave's, do I? (That's probably got something to do with the fact that, as I'm often the first to admit, I don't know many incontrovertible facts!). But I can honestly hand on heart say that I don't recall ever having heard "Shout me when", so I am just puzzled (especially now) by your emphatic claim that is is 'very common in BE' (I'm from London and have a grandparent from Ireland, my dad was from Liverpool...and I've obviously met people from all over at university, or whilst travelling or teching abroad).

Anyway, sure, be like that and don't waste anymore time "trying" to convince me. Do you get like this with all your students when they just don't get something?

Not really? I should do though, as many of them are like you in that they also say "It can't be real, because I'VE never heard it!".

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:23 pm

Tommy shouted his dog.
-------

Mary shouted her brother in.
-----

I saw Sam and shouted him over.

I shouted him to join us.
-----

I had to shout him or he would have fallen.

Steven (having being) shouted, did not fall.

------------------

Call and shout appearing as almost synoymous.

"My mate is in a quite steady relationship, When we hang out if his girlfriend calls him he has to run to her sttraight away. when we are in college as we leave for our lunch break he says he is coming with us and says nothing will change his mind, then his girlfriend will shout him and we dont see him for the rest of the 1-2hr's of the lunch break."

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:05 pm

Just out of interest, would you happen to have any data about the speakers (location, age, sex etc)? I don't have many dialect atlases in the UK, and none here with me in Japan. I might do a websearch in a bit...

metal wrote:I should do though, as many of them are like you in that they also say "It can't be real, because I'VE never heard it!".

Oh, I began to twig as the examples kept coming that you weren't just toying with the grammar, but were meaning I should view the uses of the lexis as real, attested. And I do accept that now - I've now seen them typed, and can also imagine how speakers (well, at least some of those speakers whose speech you've presented) would say it.

When teachers say they can't believe something is real, they maybe aren't so much saying that to deny its existence, but instead possibly imtimating that they would not feel competent to teach it; but when there are "other ways to say it" (with which they are fully conversant), if it isn't an essential form in itself, where's the problem? (I mean, it's not as if I'm like Xui and saying I have a huge problem with present perfect or something!).

Even native speakers can't be assumed to know or be comfortable with teaching everything; in fact, it might even be harder for native speakers than non-natives, because although for non-natives things become more and more natural and eventually come very naturally, some things for a native speaker will never be in their nature to comfortably say.

Fortunately, the differences between the core native speaker varities are not so vast that they seriously interfere with communication or ease of teaching, and it seems as if everyone is being influenced by (and more or less tolerating if not accepting) American English anyway.

That's a point, is that use of 'shout' familiar to American members of Dave's? (I'm presuming/recall/am pretty sure you're also British, metal).

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:03 am

fluffyhamster wrote:I don't have many dialect atlases in the UK, and none here with me in Japan. I might do a websearch in a bit...

Forget the , oh so obvious, attempt at a polite " I need dialect info ruse", just believe me.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:07 am

fluffyhamster wrote:
That's a point, is that use of 'shout' familiar to American members of Dave's? (I'm presuming/recall/am pretty sure you're also British, metal).

Please don't shame me. IRISH!

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:57 am

metal56 wrote:
fluffyhamster wrote:I don't have many dialect atlases in the UK, and none here with me in Japan. I might do a websearch in a bit...
Forget the , oh so obvious, attempt at a polite " I need dialect info ruse", just believe me.

That isn't very helpful of you to say if I am actually seriously wanting to know in what developmentally pathological linguistic ways I somehow differ from the majority of British people (which, as it turns out, you rightfully or wrongly can't consider yourself as being...which makes me wonder if you should be making pronouncements about "British" English anyway! That is, maybe what you reckon is so common is only so in Ireland, but obviously I have no way of knowing if that is e.g. where you grew up or [still, now] live, or if you have e.g. lived in London for ages and really have noted an overwhelming propensity for "shouting" in people that I unfortunately have never been as linguitically priveleged to meet

).

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:03 am

fluffyhamster wrote:wrongly can't consider yourself as being...which makes me wonder if you should be making pronouncements about "British" English anyway!

Wow! Let's keep all "foreign" linguists out of our discussion on OUR language. Do you know how long I have lived on your Sceptic Isle?

That is, maybe what you reckon is so common is only so in Ireland,

Ask your grandaddy.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:39 am

metal56 wrote:
fluffyhamster wrote:wrongly can't consider yourself as being...which makes me wonder if you should be making pronouncements about "British" English anyway!

Wow! Let's keep all "foreign" linguists out of our discussion on OUR language. Do you know how long I have lived on your Sceptic Isle?

That is, maybe what you reckon is so common is only so in Ireland,
Ask your grandaddy.

Note that I went on to say, after the little bit you quoted there, that '(but) obviously I have no way of knowing if that (i.e. Ireland) is e.g. where you grew up or [still, now] live, or if you have e.g. lived in London for ages and really have noted an overwhelming propensity for "shouting" in people that I unfortunately have never been as linguitically priveleged to meet'. Glad to hear you like living England, anyway!

But come now, seriously, nobody's trying to exclude you from discussing English (you obviously know a lot and therefore have a lot of value to share with us)...it's just, until you answer or help us establish exactly where things like 'Shout me when...' are said and not said, it seems a bit presumptuous to more or less be telling a regional speaker (me, of "SE London" English) how people in his (my) community speak (but maybe things have changed in the five to ten years I've been away from there, or, if you also by an uncanny coincidence lived or grew up in Catford, perhaps your street should consider becoming an independent state!

).

Basically, I think you have been saying that the "shout" regionalect is (should be) more "standard" than it actually is (to me), whereas I, through use of the scarequotes around (thus:) "British", have always been implying that I think it is more a regionalect feature than an RP feature, without ever meaning to imply that you don't know what RP is; that is, my ignorance (and I therefore have to presume my regionalect's) ignorance of "shout" is what causes me to doubt your grasp of my regionalect, rather than me to doubt your grasp of RP as a whole (regardless of whether it does in fact, outside my regional experiences, include "shout"). Fair and clear enough?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:10 am

Do you know how long I have lived on your Sceptic Isle?

Glad to hear you like living England, anyway!

Existential/experiential present perfect. I no longer live there.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:31 am

metal56 wrote:Do you know how long I have lived on your Sceptic Isle?

Glad to hear you like living England, anyway!
Existential/experiential present perfect. I no longer live there.

Much more of that and I'll go join Xui in his retreat/hermitage/dotage!

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:35 am

I must say, metal, you are a man (woman? thing? of beauty? or of) mystery! You keep everything under such close wraps and on a strictly need-to-know basis, including even the English.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:42 am

If you were made of softer stuff I'd bend your ear or twist your arm more, but you are metal. Metal tatooed shouted me angried.