The Alps is/are?

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:23 pm

LarryLatham wrote:If you mention a particular police department, a following singular copula is pretty common:

The San Diego Police is looking into the discovery this morning of a body found in the trunk of a Mercedes parked at the airport.

Larry Latham

Ugh, Larry, it hurts my ears.

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:48 pm

Really? Why, Lorikeet?

Larry Latham

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:53 pm

LarryLatham wrote:Really? Why, Lorikeet?

Larry Latham

Native speaker nausea!

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:05 pm

Gee! I'm a NS too, but my stomach is feeling fine.

Larry Latham

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:14 pm

To be fair (and to be clear to other readers) the reason you say your ears hurt is that you are accustomed to thinking of "The (city) Police..." as a plural construction, and so requiring a plural verb. You would be happier, for example, with: "The San Diego Police are looking into..." if I understand your objection correctly.

But the problem is, speakers and listeners have a choice (there is freedom here) to make about how they wish to view, at the precise moment of the communication, the 'number' of that construction. They can view "the police" as a group of individual officers, or they can see "the police" as a singular collective body.

So it seems to me that either a singular or a plural copula can follow. Don't you think so too?

Larry Latham

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:28 pm

Of course, if you're referring to a certain 1980s band fronted by Sting that recorded "Message in a Bottle" and "Walking on the Moon" you'd use the plural:
The Police have recorded a new album, not The Police has....

Ooops, was that my age showing?

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:20 pm

LarryLatham wrote:To be fair (and to be clear to other readers) the reason you say your ears hurt is that you are accustomed to thinking of "The (city) Police..." as a plural construction, and so requiring a plural verb. You would be happier, for example, with: "The San Diego Police are looking into..." if I understand your objection correctly.

But the problem is, speakers and listeners have a choice (there is freedom here) to make about how they wish to view, at the precise moment of the communication, the 'number' of that construction. They can view "the police" as a group of individual officers, or they can see "the police" as a singular collective body.

So it seems to me that either a singular or a plural copula can follow. Don't you think so too?

Larry Latham

I'm sure you are right; I'm sure it can be used in some places and in some instances, but I, personally, can't use it. It "sounds" wrong. If someone says, "The San Francisco police has arrived," I can feel myself wincing. I, personally, can only accept "The San Francisco police have arrived." I will regard it as a personal failing!

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:03 am

Lorikeet wrote: I will regard it as a personal failing!

Oh, my, Lorikeet. Let's not beat you up that bad. I promise not to tell anybody if you don't.

Larry Latham

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:55 pm

My personal preference:
The San Diego Police are looking into the discovery this morning of a body found in the trunk of a Mercedes parked at the airport.
The San Diego Police is looking into allegations of racial profiling and corruption made against some of its officers.

Go figure![/i]

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:45 pm

Stephen Jones wrote:My personal preference:
The San Diego Police are looking into the discovery this morning of a body found in the trunk of a Mercedes parked at the airport.
The San Diego Police is looking into allegations of racial profiling and corruption made against some of its officers.

Go figure!

So you like both of those equally Stephen? Or the context in your mind changes the appropriate choice from one to the other? Or you prefer the first to the second?

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:38 pm

Like you, I find the singular in the first sentence ungainly.

I would not object to the plural in the second sentence but would prefer the singular for reasons given in my previous post.

The point as Larry says is that there is a cholce, even in American English.

thethinker · Post by **thethinker** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:26 pm

It's funny, if a student had asked me whether police can be followed by a singular noun I would have almost definitely said "no - only in expressions like 'the x police department is...". I just don't think of the word as being flexible in the same way as words like government, family etc. etc. But a quick look on google turns up "British Transport Police is...", " Sussex police is...", "Surrey police is...". I'd personally never say this, and I suppose that while we should rely on our instincts as teachers, it shows that we're not infallible even in matters of grammatical correctness.

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 12:00 am

thethinker wrote:I'd personally never say this, and I suppose that while we should rely on our instincts as teachers, it shows that we're not infallible even in matters of grammatical correctness.

I believe this is a point that cannot be stressed too strongly or too often. Indeed, we should be very careful about relying on our instincts in many matters of correctness in English, whether grammatical or lexical or pragmatic. What might be commonly said in Scotland (and therefore quite properly judged as "correct" in English) may never or rarely be said in America. An American teacher who says it's "wrong" is just wrong herself.

I've said it before many times, but I'll say it again: Correcting is tricky business (unless you're talking about the correct spelling of a word or something purely mechanical like that). Better be sure you're right yourself before you label something a student says. It might be better to say, "I've not heard that before."

Larry Latham