Which is grammatically correct?

prescher · Post by **prescher** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:13 pm

Dear All

The funny thing , in my opinion, is that most grammar books are not conclusive about this subject. I mean, they use words like: " We often/usually use the ´s ..." , " We use the ´s especially when..."
Well, this is the opinion of a non-native speaker.

Prescher

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 9:19 am

The genitive is one of the most confusing aspects of English grammar. If you want a thorough explanation try out "A University Grammar of English" by Leech and Spartik, et al.

However it is clear that 'of' is rarely an alternative for 's. "Joel's book" is not the same as "The Book of Joel".

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 9:26 am

Dear dduck,
I was replying to Preyscher not to his students. This is a teachers' forum not a students' one.

Prescher seems to be under the impression that he can teach his students to say "the car of John" instead of "John's car". THIS IS INCORRECT.

dduck · Post by **dduck** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 3:19 pm

Stephen Jones wrote:Dear dduck,
I was replying to Preyscher not to his students. This is a teachers' forum not a students' one.

Prescher seems to be under the impression that he can teach his students to say "the car of John" instead of "John's car". THIS IS INCORRECT.

Okay, so you think it's wrong. Would you like to offer a solution to prescher's problem?

Iain

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Sat Jul 12, 2003 7:13 am

Prescher knows his students better than I do. Moreover he knows the texts they are using. What he must not do is teach them an obviously wrong construction that they will not get out of their heads later on.

The different uses of 's' in English provide no end of problems. And the "morpheme studies" research carried out in the eighties suggests that you cannot reproduce certain morphemes until you have mastered others.

My advice would probably be to teach it more for recognition, and not to be too bothered by mistakes.

sita · Post by **sita** » Sat Jul 12, 2003 11:39 am

In Germany we teach beginners:

If it is a person use the `s
If it is an object use of the

The man's car is small. John`s number is 79 79 3.

The colour of the car is red. The number of the hotel is 56666.

Siân

Harzer · Post by **Harzer** » Sat Jul 12, 2003 1:16 pm

Or, for objects, use the noun itself as a specifier:

the garage door; the hotel number; my foot size and so on.

Harzer

sita · Post by **sita** » Sat Jul 12, 2003 7:28 pm

yeah sure but imho the discussion was
's vs. of the

Siân

Harzer · Post by **Harzer** » Mon Jul 14, 2003 4:55 am

Yes, of course, but as a learner it doesn't hurt to have a fall-back position when in doubt.

Harzer

Norm Ryder · Post by **Norm Ryder** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 6:53 am

Hi all
Looks like the choice between The Bride of Frankenstein and The French Lieutenant's Woman is more difficult than you'd first think

On the question of the disappearing apostrophe in the UK: when I raised it earlier I thought I read it in some journalistic article on language change; but it turns out that I'd taken an article in The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language a bit further than it intended.
After discussing how uncertain the use of the apostrophe had been since its introduction from the French in the 16th century, the article goes on to say that in recent times commercial practice in the UK has been increasingly to omit the possessive apostrophe from book titles and company names. What had stuck in my my mind was the phrase: "the bias is definitely towards ommission".

Later, however, the article says: there are many occasions when the ... apostrophe expresses a valuable written distinction, and there is strong pedagogical pressure on children to maintain its use, especially in the USA". Sorry, dduck, if I had you worrying nights about apostrophe being surreptitiously hijacked throughout the UK.

Keep up the discussion, folks. Every post is adding another nuance to our understanding of what we loosely call the possessive.
Norm

sita · Post by **sita** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:22 am

Hi!

I preferred the J.Fowles book

In Germany if you omit an ' in an exam you lose marks.

Best wishes
Siân

Norm Ryder · Post by **Norm Ryder** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:04 am

Sian
I guess that would also be the opinion of the French lieutenant's woman.
Cheers.

Norm

Jimmytrain · Post by **Jimmytrain** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 3:03 pm

Dear all,

I'm new to this site and find it most encoraging to see how teachers all over the world take time to help each other.

There is a great book called "Grammar for English Language Teachers" which gives a comprenhensive explanation of the subject in question. To write it here would be a long and useless task for you may want to get it for further referrence.

the ISBN is 0 521 477972

However, unless I'm very much misstaken, when " 's " belongs to the verb to be, as in "John's a mule", it is followed by the det. "a" and when it represent "possession" (john's mule) it is not. That could be a clue for your students to distinguish between them.

Hope it helped

dduck · Post by **dduck** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 6:15 pm

Jimmytrain wrote:However, unless I'm very much misstaken, when " 's " belongs to the verb to be, as in "John's a mule", it is followed by the det. "a" and when it represent "possession" (john's mule) it is not. That could be a clue for your students to distinguish between them.

Yes, it's a start.

'John's a mule' = John is + noun

But, how about

'John's red' = John is + adjective
'John's gone red' = John has + past participle.

And then we get to

"John's red car ..."

Iain

kiwiboy_nz_99 · Post by **kiwiboy_nz_99** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 5:15 pm

It seems there are examples where both apply, "The house of the president" versus "The president's house". In this case I disagree that the choice is strictly a matter of formality. I think that the former emphasizes "house" and the latter emphasizes "president". Just my thoughts.

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Which is grammatically correct?

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