Is there any place for teaching formal grammar in the classroom? When should we teach it, and to whom should we teach it to?
I have experience teaching young learners, and grammar was never something that even entered my lessons. I am currently studying in order to feel comfortable teaching adults, but I am a bit confused as to when formal grammar is appropriate.
What does everyone think?
Thanks for the help!
Teaching Formal Grammar?
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
-
JuanTwoThree
- Posts: 947
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:30 am
- Location: Spain
)How to teach grammar rules?
How do you define "formal grammar"? If there is "formal grammar", does "informal grammar" exist too and if so which of both is better? I think it is impossible and unnecessary to teach grammar at all. Think about it: How do you learn a language? By learning grammar rules? No, by getting language input and imitating native speakers. Do native speakers learn grammar rules? Most don't and they still use their language properly.
-
JuanTwoThree
- Posts: 947
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:30 am
- Location: Spain
Openmind, you raise a number of points.
Informal grammar does exist. It's sometimes how each teacher explains things, which examples they use. Sometimes it's slightly off-beat methods such as feedback with hot sheets, grammar auctions etc
Of course it's possible to teach grammar. I was taught loads of Latin, French and German grammar. I teach English grammar when it helps.
You can either say "that s which we put at the end of verbs (oops grammar) when there is a he or a she or an it" or you can say "the 3rd person s". I know which is shorter.
Learning your second or subsequent language is not like your first unless you're very young. You don't drink milk and gurgle for the first two years. The input you describe is not every moment of your waking hours. You don't love the principal inputters. You can read and write. L1 interference needs correcting. You'll probably always have an accent. It's not natural.
The process you describe is painfully slow and not very successful in adults and teenagers.. How many adults do you know who live in another country for years and never ever learn its language well. I'm a shining example. So are the people who emigrated to the UK 40 years ago and have had all the possibilities of input and imitation you describe. How can they possibly speak non standard English after so many hours of hearing speaking reading and writing. Because nobody ever sat down and explained some things to them? Or to me? A few opportune doses of Spanish grammar would have sorted me out.
Informal grammar does exist. It's sometimes how each teacher explains things, which examples they use. Sometimes it's slightly off-beat methods such as feedback with hot sheets, grammar auctions etc
Of course it's possible to teach grammar. I was taught loads of Latin, French and German grammar. I teach English grammar when it helps.
You can either say "that s which we put at the end of verbs (oops grammar) when there is a he or a she or an it" or you can say "the 3rd person s". I know which is shorter.
Learning your second or subsequent language is not like your first unless you're very young. You don't drink milk and gurgle for the first two years. The input you describe is not every moment of your waking hours. You don't love the principal inputters. You can read and write. L1 interference needs correcting. You'll probably always have an accent. It's not natural.
The process you describe is painfully slow and not very successful in adults and teenagers.. How many adults do you know who live in another country for years and never ever learn its language well. I'm a shining example. So are the people who emigrated to the UK 40 years ago and have had all the possibilities of input and imitation you describe. How can they possibly speak non standard English after so many hours of hearing speaking reading and writing. Because nobody ever sat down and explained some things to them? Or to me? A few opportune doses of Spanish grammar would have sorted me out.
Openmind, have you learned a second language as an adult? There are many different learning styles, but the one I have needs a "grammar hook" to hang some of my learning on. I have studied many different languages, and I teach the way I wanted to learn. Sitting and memorizing grammar rules to the detriment of everything else doesn't make sense, but using a quick grammar explanation to show some of the overriding ideas is very helpful to adults.
I think what's really painfully slow is "being taught grammar". How many people do you know who were taught grammar at school and don't remember much except that it was a frustrating experience?
The immigrants you describe don't learn the language because they don't want and/or don't have to. They stick to each other and don't get any language input other than their mother tongue. Let's say an immigrant to the US or UK (no matter their age) start immersing themselves into English from day one of their arrival. This means, they watch the local TV channels, read the local newspapers (first they start with the headlines and maybe a dictionary and after a while they can read and understand entire sentences), they get a job where nobody speaks their mother tongue, they hand around with native speakers in their freetime, they write emails in English. How long do you think it will take that person to learn English? L1 inteference, accent, age -- those are just excuses for people who simply don't want to intergrate and pick up a new language.
As I said, a language is a set of communication habits and the faster you change your environment and consequently your habits, the sooner you will learn a second or third language.
The immigrants you describe don't learn the language because they don't want and/or don't have to. They stick to each other and don't get any language input other than their mother tongue. Let's say an immigrant to the US or UK (no matter their age) start immersing themselves into English from day one of their arrival. This means, they watch the local TV channels, read the local newspapers (first they start with the headlines and maybe a dictionary and after a while they can read and understand entire sentences), they get a job where nobody speaks their mother tongue, they hand around with native speakers in their freetime, they write emails in English. How long do you think it will take that person to learn English? L1 inteference, accent, age -- those are just excuses for people who simply don't want to intergrate and pick up a new language.
As I said, a language is a set of communication habits and the faster you change your environment and consequently your habits, the sooner you will learn a second or third language.
My "first second" language I learned is Russian and later I started learning English as my third language. In the process I have become aware of some basic grammar rules but I also know that the only way of learning a language is living it on a daily basis.Lorikeet wrote:Openmind, have you learned a second language as an adult?
Mind you: To learn something about grammar you don't need a teacher. If you really are interested in grammar structures you can read about them in a book. A teacher will only repeat what is written in the book that's "teaching grammar" is for people who are not willing to or capable of reading. Those people will also not make any progress with a teacher.
If there is a grammar point you might not find an answer in a book or something doesn't add up, then go on the forum and ask. Again, you don't need a teacher to explain the structure and function of the simple present. You can find that in any book or online. But there are things that are interesting to talk about and you can do that with a person who is into grammar. That person doesn't have to be a "teacher".
Oh, and by the way: have you ever seen a person who has learned a second language "in a classroom"? If so, I'd be interested to talk to them...
-
JuanTwoThree
- Posts: 947
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:30 am
- Location: Spain
"the only way of learning a language is living it on a daily basis"
So explain my 18 year old students, who live in a small provincial Spanish town, haven't travelled to an English speaking country in their lives nor started English until they were 5 or 6. There is no tourism and the English speaking community is me and a dozen others.
They are passing CAE and CPE before going to University. There's a whole generation of these kids across Europe. Now you may not call that evidence of real ability but at least 2/3 of the tests represent real competence.
They've certainly had more contact with English than previous generations but a bit of surfing, some undubbed films, the occasional extra classes apart from their school ones does not add up to your immersion. They probably don't get 15 hours of contact a week.
I, of course, think that excellent teaching
better materials, more contact with English certainly, common sense timely and effective grammar and the whole ghastly but wonderful eclectic mix seems to be working.
So explain my 18 year old students, who live in a small provincial Spanish town, haven't travelled to an English speaking country in their lives nor started English until they were 5 or 6. There is no tourism and the English speaking community is me and a dozen others.
They are passing CAE and CPE before going to University. There's a whole generation of these kids across Europe. Now you may not call that evidence of real ability but at least 2/3 of the tests represent real competence.
They've certainly had more contact with English than previous generations but a bit of surfing, some undubbed films, the occasional extra classes apart from their school ones does not add up to your immersion. They probably don't get 15 hours of contact a week.
I, of course, think that excellent teaching
better materials, more contact with English certainly, common sense timely and effective grammar and the whole ghastly but wonderful eclectic mix seems to be working.So, are you saying your students have been taught English for 12 to 13 years?JuanTwoThree wrote:"the only way of learning a language is living it on a daily basis"
So explain my 18 year old students, who live in a small provincial Spanish town, haven't travelled to an English speaking country in their lives nor started English until they were 5 or 6. There is no tourism and the English speaking community is me and a dozen others.
-
JuanTwoThree
- Posts: 947
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:30 am
- Location: Spain
I would guess that they get about 100 hours of class a year, plus whatever other contact they may have.
If they go to private classes it probably means that the hours of school class are a waste of time so even if they get 6 hours a week in term time it's probably really 3 effective hours.
So over 12 years that's a minimum of 1200 hours of English. If you're awake for 16 hours a day that's 75 days of living and breathing English in your situation of "on a daily basis". Not even three months.
An extreme case would be 15 hours a week for thirty weeks in the year for 12 years. It's still only about 330 days. Ten months.
Let's be generous and say six months, to include the surfing and the films.
And they can't read or write well when they start. Left and right are difficult. They can't tell the time. They're indisciplined with no learner habits until they're much older. They haven't even learnt their first language that well. They're six.
And every time they switch off the input is Spanish. All evening, all weekend, all summer, in all the other classes. Everything else.
So that's tops six months of English, spread over 12 years . It's a very convincing case for how it's being done.
As an adult in the conditions you describe would you get that level in six months? Well perhaps. Though I doubt it.
If they go to private classes it probably means that the hours of school class are a waste of time so even if they get 6 hours a week in term time it's probably really 3 effective hours.
So over 12 years that's a minimum of 1200 hours of English. If you're awake for 16 hours a day that's 75 days of living and breathing English in your situation of "on a daily basis". Not even three months.
An extreme case would be 15 hours a week for thirty weeks in the year for 12 years. It's still only about 330 days. Ten months.
Let's be generous and say six months, to include the surfing and the films.
And they can't read or write well when they start. Left and right are difficult. They can't tell the time. They're indisciplined with no learner habits until they're much older. They haven't even learnt their first language that well. They're six.
And every time they switch off the input is Spanish. All evening, all weekend, all summer, in all the other classes. Everything else.
So that's tops six months of English, spread over 12 years . It's a very convincing case for how it's being done.
As an adult in the conditions you describe would you get that level in six months? Well perhaps. Though I doubt it.
Last edited by JuanTwoThree on Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
So what are you trying to say? That learning through the traditional classroom approach is the most effective method? Don't you think that if a person really wants to learn the language, they can make progress much faster by creating their own learning system? Also, what would you say did you teach your students that they couldn't have learned themselves provided they had wanted to? Does a person need a teacher to teach them the language? If I want to learn Italian or any other language I can find sources that are much more effective than any teacher, especially if that teacher works in a classroom setting which means I have to share my time with other learners who are struggling to build correct sentences. In a classroom I'm more exposed to "wrong language" than to "correct language". No wonder it takes years for a person to learn some basic phrases in a classroom.
-
JuanTwoThree
- Posts: 947
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:30 am
- Location: Spain
No. I'm saying that you're not a six year old. Or twelve.
I doubt if you're a surly unmotivated 17 year old.
Let's say you're probably right, for some adults.
Though even then theyu have to have acquired good learning habits, be able to move to another country, have time, supportive families , be literate in their first language etc
You asked "have you ever seen a person who has learned a second language "in a classroom"?"
Thousands.
I doubt if you're a surly unmotivated 17 year old.
Let's say you're probably right, for some adults.
Though even then theyu have to have acquired good learning habits, be able to move to another country, have time, supportive families , be literate in their first language etc
You asked "have you ever seen a person who has learned a second language "in a classroom"?"
Thousands.
And would you say the can hold a conversation with any native speakers including people from Scotland and other parts in the UK? Can they express their thoughts in English and make phone calls?JuanTwoThree wrote: You asked "have you ever seen a person who has learned a second language "in a classroom"?"
Thousands.
-
JuanTwoThree
- Posts: 947
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:30 am
- Location: Spain
Yes. Though I can't understand "any native speakers including people from Scotland" so that's a tall if not a troll order.
Look, openmind , try to live up to your user name.
Imagine that you're in a small town of 250,000 people somewhere in Europe.
Leave out FCE for a moment because its level is questionable. But in that town every year 200 or even 500 mostly young people take CAE, or a high level Trinity exam, or IELTS, or TOEFL or a BEC and get a good mark.
In a town like Bilbao it's 1000s.
Part of the exam in most cases consists of holding a conversation with a native speaker. Or listening to a wide variety of accents. They have to write essays in English to express their thoughts.
On the basis of these exams they do Erasmus years, or study in the States or get jobs with multinationals . Students go to a university in Holland or Germany or the UK where the language of instruction is English. Others get jobs in civil aviation, tourism etc
Talk to young people from Scandinavia, Holland, Catalonia, Turkey. 15 years ago I would have agreed with you: only those who had had the privilege of extended travel and prolonged contact with English got to these levels. But there's a generation of young people who, it can safely be said, have cracked it. How do you think the child of a Spanish or Greek bar owner has acquired their enviable level of English.? If anything it's the sons of Saudis who "study" in the UK who are failing.
Last year I had half a dozen students under 20 who passed CPE. With CPE they can definitely do the things that you ask of them in your post.
Some of them had two weeks in Bournemouth at some point. They all of course have more contact with English than only classroom time.
But bother to do the maths as described in my previous posts, though I think some of it is wrong!
Even if their contact with English adds up to a whole day a week in term-time, which is frankly impossible, that's a month a year. So maybe ten months over ten years. But think how young they were when they started.
You're very fond of asking questions. Here's one:
How do YOU think a 16 year old Spanish girl from a modest family who goes to a normal state school and has 3 hours of private classes as well as her 4 hours of school classes (which are wasting her time) has passed CPE? Listening to music? Surfing? Youtube? Satellite tv? Undoubtedly these all help. You don't have to go to English if English can come to you, which it increasingly can. Now take out the classes and you have her struggling friend who is the stereotypical Euroteen.
You've had awful experiences with language learning. These people have had a reasonably good time with colourful appropriate material and good teachers. They've negotiated the contents of the class, they have common goals with the teacher, they understand why they do what they do in class.
20 years ago they didn't exist in Spain. 10 years ago they were still rare but they are becoming commonplace nowadays. I don't know eactly how to explain it but I see it every day. My son, who is bilingual says that in his new school some of the other 16 year olds frighten the teacher nearly as much as he does! She's having to brush up her English too, I imagine.
Everybody is slowly beginning to get their act together. The assumption that an educated young person could function at a high level in English really used to only apply in Scandinavia and Holland but it's beginning to be true in other countries, even in France and Italy.
Look, openmind , try to live up to your user name.
Imagine that you're in a small town of 250,000 people somewhere in Europe.
Leave out FCE for a moment because its level is questionable. But in that town every year 200 or even 500 mostly young people take CAE, or a high level Trinity exam, or IELTS, or TOEFL or a BEC and get a good mark.
In a town like Bilbao it's 1000s.
Part of the exam in most cases consists of holding a conversation with a native speaker. Or listening to a wide variety of accents. They have to write essays in English to express their thoughts.
On the basis of these exams they do Erasmus years, or study in the States or get jobs with multinationals . Students go to a university in Holland or Germany or the UK where the language of instruction is English. Others get jobs in civil aviation, tourism etc
Talk to young people from Scandinavia, Holland, Catalonia, Turkey. 15 years ago I would have agreed with you: only those who had had the privilege of extended travel and prolonged contact with English got to these levels. But there's a generation of young people who, it can safely be said, have cracked it. How do you think the child of a Spanish or Greek bar owner has acquired their enviable level of English.? If anything it's the sons of Saudis who "study" in the UK who are failing.
Last year I had half a dozen students under 20 who passed CPE. With CPE they can definitely do the things that you ask of them in your post.
Some of them had two weeks in Bournemouth at some point. They all of course have more contact with English than only classroom time.
But bother to do the maths as described in my previous posts, though I think some of it is wrong!
Even if their contact with English adds up to a whole day a week in term-time, which is frankly impossible, that's a month a year. So maybe ten months over ten years. But think how young they were when they started.
You're very fond of asking questions. Here's one:
How do YOU think a 16 year old Spanish girl from a modest family who goes to a normal state school and has 3 hours of private classes as well as her 4 hours of school classes (which are wasting her time) has passed CPE? Listening to music? Surfing? Youtube? Satellite tv? Undoubtedly these all help. You don't have to go to English if English can come to you, which it increasingly can. Now take out the classes and you have her struggling friend who is the stereotypical Euroteen.
You've had awful experiences with language learning. These people have had a reasonably good time with colourful appropriate material and good teachers. They've negotiated the contents of the class, they have common goals with the teacher, they understand why they do what they do in class.
20 years ago they didn't exist in Spain. 10 years ago they were still rare but they are becoming commonplace nowadays. I don't know eactly how to explain it but I see it every day. My son, who is bilingual says that in his new school some of the other 16 year olds frighten the teacher nearly as much as he does! She's having to brush up her English too, I imagine.
Everybody is slowly beginning to get their act together. The assumption that an educated young person could function at a high level in English really used to only apply in Scandinavia and Holland but it's beginning to be true in other countries, even in France and Italy.