The clownfish is no happier...

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lucy lace
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The clownfish is no happier...

Post by lucy lace » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:13 pm

I have an eager-beaver student who just watched Finding Nemo, and wants to know about the following grammar construction: "The clownfish is no happier than any other fish."

"Why "no" and not "not?" he queried querulously. "What is this called? When can I use it?"

Sigh.

Ideas?

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:36 pm

Even if the explanation is still lacking, it often helps to look at other examples until something clicks (which is why I am always recommending umpteen books to people in the hope that they'll buy more than one).

For example, I looked in my Chambers Essential English Grammar and Usage (picked at random) and found the following:
AS AN ADVERB
1 No has special uses with comparative forms:
You say, for example, She's no better today, meaning 'Her condition hasn't improved at all.' (You can also say She isn't any better today. See also any).
'Not' might appear in answer to a question (Is she (any) better? No (she's not (better))), whereas 'no' seems to function to correct an unspoken assumption (I doubt if it is used in answers). Then there is the notional link to 'any' to consider; also, gradation and/or change of the adjective/state described rather than an apparently simpler clear-cut not-negation. Anyway...

The clownfish is not happier (= it is...instead?).
The clownfish is no happier (= even though you may have been assuming that with a name like that it would or should be much happier)

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:58 am

I'm none the wiser

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:40 am

And I'm no wiser than you, JTT. :twisted: 8) :wink: :P

lolwhites
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Post by lolwhites » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:39 am

How is it different from There is no easy answer as opposed to There isn't an easy answer? If the student has no trouble with that pair, they shouldn't struggle with The clownfish is no happier...

It strikes me that the difference is one of emphasis. However, if your student is one of those who doesn't think he understands unless he has a nale for the construction, even though he can use it fine, I'm none the wiser :(

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:39 am

I couldn't resist "I'm none the wiser"

Perhaps the starting point of "no better" is "no good" and that might arise from a slight confusion about what part of speech "good" is:

I'm no angel.
Evil vs Good.
I'm no good.
It's no use.
It's no good.
It's isn't any good.
There's no use worrying about it.
There's no good worrying about it (*?)
You're no good and I'm no better.

Merriam-Webster reckons "It's no good" has a noun in it:

"b: something useful or beneficial <it's no good trying"

Which doesn't even begin to explain "no" with any other adjective.

Maybe it's Scots!

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:04 am

And: "The biggest sort of these were not bigger than larks, some no bigger than wrens, all singing with great variety of fine shrill notes; and..."

Jespersen says that not above 30 means either 30 or less than 30, but no more than means "as little as" and no less than means "a much as".

He gives an example:

"The rank and file of doctors are no more scientific than their tailors; or their tailors are no less scientific than they."

He goes on to say:

no more than three = three only
not more than three = three at most

"he paid no less than 20 pounds implies astonishment at the greatness of the amount, which was exactly 20 pounds; he paid not less than 20 pounds implies uncertainty as to the exact amount, which was, at the very least, 20 pounds"

The Philosophy of Grammar. By Otto Jespersen.

How all that relates to our question, I've still to work out.

:wink:

??

no more happy than = as happy
not more happy than = as happy or less

he's no more than an idiot = he's an idiot
?he's not more than an idiot = he's an idiot or just less than one

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:22 pm

This one is sublime:

The three girls in the beaver bonnets were no handsomer than the turnips that skirted the roadside.

The History of Pendennis. Thackeray.

Stephen Jones
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Post by Stephen Jones » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:09 pm

It's a question of the scope of the negation.
'No happier' negates 'happier'.
not''negates 'is not happier than...'.

It affects the emphasis more than the meaning in most cases.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:05 pm

Stephen Jones wrote:It affects the emphasis more than the meaning in most cases.
Not quite sure I follow. Can you expand on that a bit?

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:50 am

I see what SJ means:

He's not an angel.

He's no angel.

The first is what he isn't but we don't know what he is: he may be a cherub.

The second is what he is: unangelic.

I'm not German vs I'm no German

You could say:

"She's not good, she's wonderful"

but not, unless you mean something completely different,:

She's no good, she's wonderful.

So "I'm not happier" is what I'm not without saying what I am, but "I'm no happier" is what I am: as happy as before.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:30 am

So "I'm not happier" is what I'm not without saying what I am, but "I'm no happier" is what I am: as happy as before.
I'm not happier than I was a year ago." sounds like "true" negation. Sound like negation of something that has gone before, e.g. a comment, thought, assumption, etc.

"I'm no happier than I was a year ago." doesn't sound like a "real" negation of something that went before.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:11 am

I see what SJ means:

He's not an angel.

He's no angel.

The first is what he isn't but we don't know what he is: he may be a cherub.

The second is what he is: unangelic.
How about here:

What's her little boy like? Is he well-behaved?

Well, he's no saint/not a saint, but, yes, he's reasonably well-behaved.

lolwhites
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Post by lolwhites » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:45 am

How about She's no spring chicken vs She's not a spring chicken?

I once had a Russian student who tried to use the former phrase, but kept saying He's not a chicken, which raised a few chuckles in the staff room. The thing is, he couldn't see what was wrong with She's not a spring chicken as he'd been told they "meant the same thing"

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:58 am

It's harder to detect the difference between no and not when it's a comparative adjective rather than a noun (plus article in the case of not) that follows. Glad to see though that I'd managed to suss things out for meself (The clownfish is not happier (= it is...instead?)). :P

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