Fossilized Errors

[fluffyhamster]

The advantages as I see them (not that I have JTT's impeccable credentials!) of Dogme are that it serves to remind those potentially clueless/newbies-ish teachers that most textbook dialogues aren't authentic enough, and that there there is often an overabundance of insipid, linguistically almost randomly selected texts (all input I suppose, but where are the analytical tools? Where is even the relevance?).

Not of course that the answer is necessarily Dogme, but I do like anything that encourages teachers to make a more principled selection of materials and texts (with an eye, and ear, to more authentic spoken interaction - "demonstration"/exemplification, "practice" etc. The same phrases may occur again and again, and would, in a course constructed along more real-time lines. Some things can't be rushed with lots of handwaving, but need given and new say to be or better become established etc).

Just out of interest (not that it's from a textbook, but it is a textbook example of dodgy discourse nontheless), here's a gem that was posted over on the Japan forum recently (in reply to a request for 5-minute activities with which to wow a local Board of education hiring for for JHS AET positions - I didn't bother voicing any objections there, because doubtless it would've been deemed unconstructive, off-topic, confrontational or whatever (besides, there were enough general complaints about its unsuitability for at least Japanese JHS students)):

The easiest formula I think is to have the "students" pair up and do drills back and forth. You'd be amazed how quickly five minutes pass by.

Here is an example:

"OK, students, what are some good foods?"
"Why do you like them?"
"What are some bad foods?"
"Why do you not like them?"
Now ask one student "what food do you like?" and "Why," and do the same for "bad food."
Now tell the students to "find a partner," and ask each other what foods they like and don't like, and why, then switch roles.
After a few repetitions, introduce harder vocabulary with leading questions like this:
"You don't like candy because it makes you...?" "Fat!"
"Who makes you eat vegetables?" "Mom!"
More repetitions.
Introduce some more complex sentences if you have time, like "What do you like to eat on vacation?" Always try these out on one student before asking the whole class to perform the question in pairs.
Congratulations, your five minutes are over!

Lambert Sauveur is is!

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=g2e7 ... #PPA218,M1

[Karenne]

Woodcutter,

you're mixing me up with someone else or you're just being controversial.

I'm often wrong.

Why would I have responded to 'how can I do this with 34 students?' with a 'dont'. Reread posting from the beginning and you will see that it is perhaps you who have problem being contradicted rather than I.

I have no idea whether dogme is possible with 34 students, that's down to you to answer, I just attempted to give you some "tools" if you felt like trying something new... having not known you were experienced teacher.

A3 brainstorming sheet, for me, works a treat. I am not kidding. Sorry, really, really not kidding at all. It has worked every single time - for about 4 years. Plus have one class who drag out same sheet every 10 sessions and expand on points before choosing next directions.

Would it work for every teacher? For every student? Dunno.

I should point out that I work with Germans - who are not "culturally preordained" to brainstorming.

I happen to have really rather awful video of me brainstorming/getting feedback for topics but won't link it unless you really want the proof.

Juan! Super - I fear I'm the lone voice these days in the battle of there are other ways to be student-centered and it's nice to meet another question-the-guru.

The technology discussion is very interesting, hotting up recently as ST has bee in bonnet about IWBs and then, on the flipside one of the "cult's" grandpapas is very into 2ndLife and doing discussions, getting ST to do interviews within SLedunation etc, etc.

Seems DogmeELT will go same way as Dogme95films did - Lars gave up -maintained independence and high creativity, still hasn't produced a hollywood"flik" but the art's got magic and music now.

At the end of the day, keep absolutely everything out and you end up with boring pointless movies/classes.

Hi Fluffy,

There is really nothing to say about that exercise, except expect it to appear in a textbook one day. Some Publishing House will no doubt look upon it as !!Innovative!! OMG.

For me the attraction to dogme was just what you described, the authentic spoken interaction.

I actually just sort of stumbled into dogme by accident early 2008(?) late 2007 when doing research for a screenplay (in my dreamlife that's what I will be doing with life instead of EFL, sigh.)

Woodcutter2

Dogme done right is hard, hard work while being almost no work. Contradictory and yet so it is.

Dogme is a better option than: students please turn to page 43 where we will discuss life as a Hertfordshire grass manufacturer. We will not talk, we will now listen to the sterilized and inauthentic meeting between two fake people who are negotiating using language from the 60's and you will sit quietly while you answer random questions so I can drift off into thinking what to cook for dinner whilst you do your ineffective gap fills. As I have been sleeping I will of course be unable to provide you with any feedback on your progress because I will not have even noticed if you have in fact made any.

[woodcutter]

It's great that you are prepared to discuss methodology as well as preach it, Karenne, even with non-fans. That's unusual and refreshing.

Obviously, your brain-storms seem to go down well. But as I said, compared to what? A very stale march through a textbook, it seems, which in theory people are not supposed to be doing. (Though I admit they usually are!) That's the thing about Dogme, it is easy to know what it isn't going to be, but as Juan said, it isn't clear what it is going to be, so it is hard to have an attitude towards it. Why would you brainstorm a plan anyway? I thought no plan was necessary or desirable.

Would you really relish going to a French lesson or something and having the contents entirely dependent on the whims of whichever sorry herberts happen to be in your class? They might all be Hertfordshire manufacturers!

We all seem to like to bash textbooks, but let's be fair, they are not usually full of old-fashioned language, since they are now corpus based. The language is simple and stilted, but speaking as a learner of "difficult" languages, I've no problem with that.