usage

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:27 am

This is a little more tricky than it may seem. We all have our own ideolect which is even further removed from dialect. Personally, I come from the City of Cardiff, which is in Wales so I speak Welsh British English, but even in within the city, you will find different "Cardiff" accents. Accent is probably more noticable than grammar, but there are small differences of grammar too.

I would suggest instead that instead we should refer back to what we think of as standard English, again this too is difficult. We often refer to the American standard and the British standard, this is of course slightly artificial as the two standards influence each other.

Broadly speaking, the US and Canada speak the same standard and most English speaking countries East of the Atlantic from Ireland to New Zealand speak another. But let's just hold it there. Since when have West and East atlantic speakers of English had difficulty speaking with Each other? The occasional nuance is lost, that's about it. This is even more true in writing when one doesn't have to deal with someone's accent.

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 5:36 pm

While I wouldn't argue with what you've said here, Andy, the fact does remain that as an individual speaker of English I am still occasionally surprised by something another native speaker says. Particularly, as you suggest, if (s)he comes from another linguistic region, but possibly even when (s)he's from my own neighborhood. I move in my circles, but other people move in theirs. Sometimes particular language refinements develop without my being aware of them until after they are quite well established. Even as a teacher, which presumably makes me more than normally aware of the goings on in English, it would be disingenuous of me to try to pass myself off as an authority on all uses of the language. It's too big for any individual. Just because I've never heard it, doesn't mean that it's not completely acceptable, and even standard.

Larry Latham

wjserson · Post by **wjserson** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:47 am

I'm very relieved by your addition of the term 'broadly' when comparing "Canadian" to "American" English. Years of research by linguists have proven that the differences between the two (and the variations within each country) are indeed very numerous, too numerous to mention here.

Please, excuse me, but as a Canadian (or Canucklehead) I tend to react strongly to comparisons between the two 'Englishes'.

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:24 am

Couldn't agree more!

Larry Latham

wjserson · Post by **wjserson** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:38 am

Larry, just curious, but how would you define your idiolect? Who would you compare it with? Just wondering.

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:11 am

Older, lower middle class, western U.S., more-or-less standard native speaker.

Definitely not hip.

Larry Latham

wjserson · Post by **wjserson** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:01 pm

Sound a lot like mine, except I say "eh".

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:05 pm

...and I expect you also have a funny way of pronouncing "house" and "about"!

wjserson · Post by **wjserson** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:15 pm

Oh, man. Not that!

If I wasn't typing my messages and were able to explain the difference verbally it would be so much easier, but I don't even know how to start explaining that on this forum.

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:07 pm

Maybe it's those of us down here in the South End who pronounce them funny.

Larry Latham

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:29 pm

I have a question about "eh?" I know it's supposed to be Canadian, but it's part of my ideolect too. I was raised in Detroit, near the Candian border, and wondered if it leaked over.

I know I don't have what we Americans consider the traditional Canadian pronunciation of "about" and "house" but I do make an "/ai/" sound that starts with a schwa before a voiceless consonant, and even some voiced ones. (My husband always laughed when I talked about the Detroit Tigers because there was a definite /schwa i/ sound.) Anyone have any thoughts about eh?

wjserson · Post by **wjserson** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:18 pm

Well, I would guess that in order to find out whether it's the same "eh" or not, it would be most important to find out what it means semantically, when you say it?

There are probably more than a dozen meanings to the "eh" that are very tough for others to use properly.

"I was walking down the street, eh?" (understand so far?). Smile on speaker's face "I had already drank a few beers and feeling pretty good, eh?" (you know how it is?) Gesturing the size with his arms "I'm doing my thing and all the sudden I see this BIG GUY, eh?" (really, enhancing the listener's image of the object) "I'm minding my own business then, eh?" (you can bet)

DO any of these sound familiar?

wjserson · Post by **wjserson** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:21 pm

Sorry, forgot some of the more obvious ones :

"So, I here your date last night went REALLY WELL, eh?" (hunch, wink, I'm waiting for more info)

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:06 pm

Hmm I guess I use it like a tag question. Maybe I have my own version of "eh" too.

You understand, eh? (I figure you do)
So you had lunch already, eh? (That's why I didn't offer you some of my sandwich.)

And oddly enough, the last example you gave sounded fine to me, but maybe without the wink

wjserson · Post by **wjserson** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:52 pm

"This stuff aboot the Canadian 'eh' is getting interesting, eh?"

Boy that sounds like a terrible streotype of Canadian English.

To tell you the truth, Lorikeet, your example sounds to me like something a Canadian would say. So , not suprisingly, the "eh" concept does indeed exist. Did Detroit ever have a French community within it, or near it?