The purpose of identifying subjects, as I see it, is to help explain mistakes to students within a system of grammar. If students say "Is raining" or "bit the cat!" you may suggest that a subject is needed. Possibly, you can say "Nowhere in the world is a comparable place" is missing a subject "there", though I'm not sure about that.
Anyway, though of course I can't quite grasp Prawn's post, it is difficult to imagine such a grammatical system being as functional within the classroom. Speaking a little Chinese, I do see the attraction of treating "there is" as one unit. But I'd appreciate seeing an example of how this grammar is practically useful for students.
nowhere...is there......... please define
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
Physical production
Good morning.
I'm going to reply to woodcutter's petition for an example of "there is" being treated usefully as a unit (I think that's the thing he's asking about).
My students often have important challenges to face with pronunciation. We all know the reasons. Understanding at one point or another the word for word grammatical explanation is certainly useful and fills a moment or two of class time while you look about for the box of props for the "there's a" exercise you are going to do to get it in their mouths. Already having difficulties with chaining our sounds, we needn't draw too much attention to those words, but rather learn to say it the "easy" way, because the other way is cumbersome:
There (cut off of tone, no liason) is (another pause, very short but unnecessary) a book (pause) on (pause) the ("the" well pronounced) table. (smile, I got through that one okay!)
thersa bukan thteibl
That's all.
peace,
revel.
I'm going to reply to woodcutter's petition for an example of "there is" being treated usefully as a unit (I think that's the thing he's asking about).
My students often have important challenges to face with pronunciation. We all know the reasons. Understanding at one point or another the word for word grammatical explanation is certainly useful and fills a moment or two of class time while you look about for the box of props for the "there's a" exercise you are going to do to get it in their mouths. Already having difficulties with chaining our sounds, we needn't draw too much attention to those words, but rather learn to say it the "easy" way, because the other way is cumbersome:
There (cut off of tone, no liason) is (another pause, very short but unnecessary) a book (pause) on (pause) the ("the" well pronounced) table. (smile, I got through that one okay!)
thersa bukan thteibl
That's all.
peace,
revel.
If you'll allow me to do some fence sitting, I'd like to agree with both Stephen and Glenski. I agree with Stephen that the idea of 'parts of speech' has limited usefulness.
But I also agree with Glenski that 'there' isn't a pronoun, since it doesn't represent anything.
So let's forget about parts of speech and think about the role that 'there' performs in such sentences in English. The reason we need 'there' is that in English, we indicate whether we are requesting information or giving it by the subject-verb order.
subject-verb = "I am supplying information." ("There's a bee in the bottle.")
verb-subject = "I am requesting information." ("Is there a bee in the bottle?")
The subject doesn't correspond to any reality beyond language. It's a function within the structure of the sentence that indicates to the listener (or reader) what you're doing with language.
In languages such as Chinese, this kind of information (i.e. whether we're supplying or requesting information) doesn't make use of subject-verb order, so there's no need to fill that slot in the sentence with anything when, quite obviously, it doesn't correspond to anything in the "real" world.
But I also agree with Glenski that 'there' isn't a pronoun, since it doesn't represent anything.
So let's forget about parts of speech and think about the role that 'there' performs in such sentences in English. The reason we need 'there' is that in English, we indicate whether we are requesting information or giving it by the subject-verb order.
subject-verb = "I am supplying information." ("There's a bee in the bottle.")
verb-subject = "I am requesting information." ("Is there a bee in the bottle?")
The subject doesn't correspond to any reality beyond language. It's a function within the structure of the sentence that indicates to the listener (or reader) what you're doing with language.
In languages such as Chinese, this kind of information (i.e. whether we're supplying or requesting information) doesn't make use of subject-verb order, so there's no need to fill that slot in the sentence with anything when, quite obviously, it doesn't correspond to anything in the "real" world.
Where is....
How about this early morning thought?
"there" is not "here". The object being spoken about, being identified or being brought into discourse is somewhere. Where is it?
"there is", like "that"?
"the" meaning "that particular"?
"there is" sometimes means where it is, but needs "it": "There it is."
"there is" often means "this thing I'm speaking about exists": "There is wine in the bottle."
Walk into your classroom tomorrow (or once you're finished with your holiday) and simply say "there". You might feel the need of adding a gesture but don't do it. On another occasion, without preamble, suddenly say to a particular student "there is". Or even "there it is". Even better, in the middle of a talk on any other explanation, suddenly insert a "theresa".
For me it's a bit like having a body part on a disecting (sp) table, identifying this body part (let's say an interior organ), recognizing its function in the body it once belonged to, but not knowing what animal this body part came from. That dollop of DNA found in the suspicious stain on the sheets only has meaning if the doner is on file, was in the right place at the right time and had some reason for doing whatever was done!
Pardon the murder metaphore, reading mystery stories to pass the vacation's less exciting moments.
peace,
revel.
"there" is not "here". The object being spoken about, being identified or being brought into discourse is somewhere. Where is it?
"there is", like "that"?
"the" meaning "that particular"?
"there is" sometimes means where it is, but needs "it": "There it is."
"there is" often means "this thing I'm speaking about exists": "There is wine in the bottle."
Walk into your classroom tomorrow (or once you're finished with your holiday) and simply say "there". You might feel the need of adding a gesture but don't do it. On another occasion, without preamble, suddenly say to a particular student "there is". Or even "there it is". Even better, in the middle of a talk on any other explanation, suddenly insert a "theresa".
For me it's a bit like having a body part on a disecting (sp) table, identifying this body part (let's say an interior organ), recognizing its function in the body it once belonged to, but not knowing what animal this body part came from. That dollop of DNA found in the suspicious stain on the sheets only has meaning if the doner is on file, was in the right place at the right time and had some reason for doing whatever was done!
Pardon the murder metaphore, reading mystery stories to pass the vacation's less exciting moments.
peace,
revel.
Nowhere in the world is there a coastline like that one.
or
There isn't a coastline like that one anywhere in the world.
subject/verb/adverb (of negation)/indefinite article/noun/adjective/demonstrative adjective/pronoun/place adverb/preposition/definite article/noun
Not sure about "like" being an adjective.
As headings for columns when explaining word order in sentences and types of fragments (eg. prepositional phrases or adjective chains).
Without thrashing through detail about what a subject may or may not be, I do have to point out to my students, who have a tendency to skip over pronouns or repeat nouns when pronouns should be used, that a subject is always necessary, even if at times it is invisible (understood (you) in the imperative).
That's about as far as my grammar takes me on this sentence. The two versions of the sentence might be saying the same thing but may be communicating more than just the words, such as wonderment in the first with its poetic manipulation of English word order (why is it "is there" instead of "there is"?) while the second might be result of a previous comment. Not making a rule-judgement there, just a pair of contexts. Just read first the sentences then that list I made of the parts of speech out loud to your computer screen or to someone nearby, and you'll see what I mean.
peace,
revel.
or
There isn't a coastline like that one anywhere in the world.
subject/verb/adverb (of negation)/indefinite article/noun/adjective/demonstrative adjective/pronoun/place adverb/preposition/definite article/noun
Not sure about "like" being an adjective.
As headings for columns when explaining word order in sentences and types of fragments (eg. prepositional phrases or adjective chains).
Without thrashing through detail about what a subject may or may not be, I do have to point out to my students, who have a tendency to skip over pronouns or repeat nouns when pronouns should be used, that a subject is always necessary, even if at times it is invisible (understood (you) in the imperative).
That's about as far as my grammar takes me on this sentence. The two versions of the sentence might be saying the same thing but may be communicating more than just the words, such as wonderment in the first with its poetic manipulation of English word order (why is it "is there" instead of "there is"?) while the second might be result of a previous comment. Not making a rule-judgement there, just a pair of contexts. Just read first the sentences then that list I made of the parts of speech out loud to your computer screen or to someone nearby, and you'll see what I mean.
peace,
revel.
I can't quite see where you're going with your last post, Revel, but (please correct me if I've misinterpreted it) it seems to me that you're saying that 'there' sometimes does represent something beyond language, something in "the real world" (i.e. it has more than a grammatical function). I'd agree with you 100% on that.
For example, the word (or, rather, the combination of English sounds) 'there' can represent a point in space not being the speaker's position: "She's not here. She's there (in the library)."
However, I do believe it to be true that in the sentence that's being discussed in this thread (i.e. "...coastline..."), the English sounds 'there' serve only a grammatical (not a representative or expressive) function.
For example, the word (or, rather, the combination of English sounds) 'there' can represent a point in space not being the speaker's position: "She's not here. She's there (in the library)."
However, I do believe it to be true that in the sentence that's being discussed in this thread (i.e. "...coastline..."), the English sounds 'there' serve only a grammatical (not a representative or expressive) function.