Vernacular chauvinism.

Anuradha Chepur · Post by **Anuradha Chepur** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:39 am

This Karnataka thing is news to me. I've known of the BJP being against people watching MTV, celebrating Valentine's day, etc., but banning English medium education and dooming the fate of millions, just to gain some political mileage, is atrocious, even if it is not 100% relevant to AL discussion. Or may be it is Applied Linguistics in a political sense.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:40 pm

I support the stance of the Karnataka government. Having children do their primary education in a foreign language in a monolingual community where they all speak the same L1 and thus have no need to communicate in the L2, taught by teachers with a limited understanding of the L2, is what will handicap these students.

The truth is that the ex-colonial countries that have education in English have performed disastrously economically compared to those that used the native language. Compare Japan, Korea and Thailand with India and Pakistan. Obviously English medium education cannot be held wholly, or even primarily responsible but it is clear that education in the vernacular up to and including university level, is no barrier to economic success.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:43 pm

So, do you think my daughter should only learn, or be offered, Basque?

If you lived in Finland you would not dream of complaining that the government primary school your daughter went to taught her in Finnish. If you wanted her to be taught in English you would either pay for private schooling or move to an English speaking country.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:52 pm

This dicussion reminds me of an article published in El Mundo by James Petras in 1999, in which he claimed that Spanish speakers in California got a better deal than Spanish speakers in Catalonia, because the former had politicians fighting for their rights, whiile the latter didn't.

El Mundo is a right-wing Spanish nationalist xenophobic muck-spreading rag.

There have been two types of Spanish speakers in Catalonia. The first are the Andalucian immigrants who inhabit the industrial suburbs such as Hospitalet. Surprisingly enough it was many of them who pushed the Catalan government to make Catalan medium education mandatory. Their argument was that they would make sure the kids learned Spanish at home, but that as they had little access to Catalan speakers in their area, they wanted the kids to be forced to use Catalan at school, as it was the only chance to acquire it, and it would be needed for the government and office jobs that the upwardly mobile children of immigrants traditionally aspire to.

The second type of Spanish speaker is the central government employee, who views Catalonia as an isolated outpost of Empire. Just as his pith-helmeted British equivalent would have been horrified at the thought of he or his children having to learn the language of the natives, so he attempted, through the mouthpieces of his class, ABC and El Mundo, to attempt to maintain the old imperial privileges, often indulging in ridiculous statements such as that Spanish was disappearing from Catalonia, when there is no corner where Spanish is not spoken, but vast chunks where
Catalan is a rarity.

Anuradha Chepur · Post by **Anuradha Chepur** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:31 am

Japan etc are not comparable to India. Everyone has a common language in those countries. India is a multilingual country. If people have their education in the vernacular, they wouln't be able to work in another state in India, let alone be fit for work outsourced by the West.

If Japan is doing better than India, it's not because they are educated in Japanese. Japan doesn't have the kind of population that India has. It wasn't abused by invaders for thirteen centuries as India was. India's independence is just sixty years old, and given this, it is not doing that badly either. It is, today, one of the fastest growing economies.

Anuradha Chepur · Post by **Anuradha Chepur** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:44 am

Having children do their primary education in a foreign language in a monolingual community where they all speak the same L1 and thus have no need to communicate in the L2, taught by teachers with a limited understanding of the L2, is what will handicap these students.

English is not a foreign language in India. It is an adopted language in all spheres: administration, law, medicine, education, business, signboards and so on. It also functions as a bridge language in a multilingual country. I agree that the teaching methods have to be updated in many places.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:30 am

Stephen Jones wrote:
So, do you think my daughter should only learn, or be offered, Basque?
If you lived in Finland you would not dream of complaining that the government primary school your daughter went to taught her in Finnish.

If it were Finnish only, I would complain. I said "Basque only". And, Basque, should be taught here, but it is the minority language and the main focus should be on Castillano, IMO.

If you wanted her to be taught in English you would either pay for private schooling or move to an English speaking country.

I was talking about her being taught Castillano.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:04 am

I support the stance of the Karnataka government. Having children do their primary education in a foreign language in a monolingual community where they all speak the same L1 and thus have no need to communicate in the L2,

What makes you think they have/or will have no need to communicate in the L2?

taught by teachers with a limited understanding of the L2, is what will handicap these students.

And where did you get the idea that the teachers have a limited understanding of the L2?

Also, are you sure that all the people in Karnataka speak the same L1, i.e. Kannada?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:10 am

Anuradha Chepur wrote:Japan etc are not comparable to India. Everyone has a common language in those countries. India is a multilingual country. If people have their education in the vernacular, they wouln't be able to work in another state in India, let alone be fit for work outsourced by the West.
That's clear. Stevie's approach would commit citizens of Karnataka to a life living and working in that state. Maybe he should become employment minister there and help provide jobs for all those who speak the dominant local language.

If Japan is doing better than India, it's not because they are educated in Japanese. Japan doesn't have the kind of population that India has. It wasn't abused by invaders for thirteen centuries as India was. India's independence is just sixty years old, and given this, it is not doing that badly either. It is, today, one of the fastest growing economies.
And what happened to Japan's economy during the nineties, did it decline because they all began speaking English? Clearly, Stevie's ideas hold no water.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:23 am

That's clear. Stevie's approach would commit citizens of Karnataka to a life living and working in that state. Maybe he should become employment minister there and help provide jobs for all those who speak the dominant local language.

'Arsehole has clearly never heard of second language teaching.

That's clear. Stevie's approach would commit citizens of Karnataka to a life living and working in that state. Maybe he should become employment minister there and help provide jobs for all those who speak the dominant local language.

No more idea of logic either.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:27 am

What makes you think they have/or will have no need to communicate in the L2?

They will have no need to communicate with each other or the teacher in L2. The result is a totally artificial situation.

You can see this in Spain. Compare the standard of English of those Spanish speakers who attend an international school where half the students are non-Spanish speakers with those that attend a so-called international school where nearly all the students are Spanish speakers. The difference in the standard of English, and the standard of general education is palpable.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:29 am

If you want your child to be taught in Spanish, as opposed to the language of the region she lives in, then either move to a Spanish speaking area or send here to boarding school.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:30 am

If you wanted her to be taught in English you would either pay for private schooling or move to an English speaking country.

The ban on English has been enforced in 2,100 private elementary schools across the state of Karnataka.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:31 am

Stephen Jones wrote:If you want your child to be taught in Spanish, as opposed to the language of the region she lives in, then either move to a Spanish speaking area or send here to boarding school.

Today Basque holds co-official language status in the Basque regions of Spain: the full autonomous community of the Basque Country and some parts of Navarre. There are about 2.5 million Basques in the areas of Gipuzkoa, Bizkaia and Araba and Nafarroa. Around 580,000 speak Basque.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:53 am

They will have no need to communicate with each other or the teacher in L2. The result is a totally artificial situation.

And if they need to communicate with others?

...The difference in the standard of English, and the standard of general education is palpable.

The standard of education in Spain is generally in a poor state in both private and public schools.