the man in a/the sweater

Jimbobob · Post by **Jimbobob** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:39 am

metal56 wrote:
Are all these possible?

Suzy: I want the doll in a red skirt.
Mum: OK, I'll get the doll for you and ask the assistant to dress the doll in the red skirt.

Suzy: I want the doll in a red skirt, not the one in a blue skirt!
Mum: OK, calm down. I'll get the doll wearing the red skirt.

Suzy: I want the doll in the red skirt, not the one in the blue skirt!
Mum: OK, calm down. I'll get the doll wearing the red skirt.

The first is basically the same as my example, makes perfect sense to me

The second one sounds wierd to me. Because we both see the dolls, we both know which skirts. I'd say the third one instead.

Am I saying the second one is incorrect? Maybe it's in wide use, but to me, the meanings are very different in each of these examples, and the second one sounds a tad confusing because it seems as if you are referencing something unknown, when we are both staring right at it.

Basically just what stephen said in a much more amusing way here:

Stephen Jones wrote:
b) "The waiter with a big *beep*."
The use of the first definite article suggests that the waiter is known to the girls (presumably it's one from the pub), but that the size of his appendage (and thus which waiter it is) is not known by anybody apart from the girl who did the inviting.

c) "A waiter with a big *beep*."
Now the waiter could be any waiter in any establishment and none but the person who invited him may have met him before or known of his existence.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:41 am

Maybe these will help:

http://www.utoronto.ca/writing/pdf/l2the.pdf
http://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/Lingui ... george.pdf
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dhdavis/'The'%20Paper.pdf

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:43 am

The second one sounds wierd to me. Because we both see the dolls, we both know which skirts. I'd say the third one instead.

So for you, "in a red skirt" cannot mean "wearing a red skirt at this very moment", right, JB? Only "in the red skirt" can mean that, IYO, right?

jotham · Post by **jotham** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:48 am

Jimbobob, that sounds good to me in that context as well (I want the doll in a red skirt, i.e., dress the doll in a red skirt). In this function, we aren't identifying the doll, so it's a little removed from my context, but I can see that those word combinations can occur sometime.
Metal, I used the wooden-leg example to answer Juan and Stephen. I'm not trying to force a rule — I'm trying to figure out what rules there may be out there that I've missed, and where they originate or how common they are. I'm learning about this, and now I know that it is said (for identification cases) by some English speakers — a thought that hadn't occurred to me previously. My agreement on usage with Jimbobob seems to indicate that it is an American-British usage difference.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:58 am

Which of these would you find more common in such a context?

When Christina Bushala saw "The Magic of the Nutcracker" for the first time, she told her parents she wanted to be the girl in the blue dress.

When Christina Bushala saw "The Magic of the Nutcracker" for the first time, she told her parents she wanted to be the girl in a blue dress.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:59 am

These are used:

We wanted to paint the room in a blue.
We wanted to paint the room in the blue.
We wanted to paint the room in a blue colour.
We wanted to paint the room in the blue colour.

...............

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:02 am

My agreement on usage with Jimbobob seems to indicate that it is an American-British usage difference.

So are you saying that "in a red skirt" cannot mean "is already wearing a red skirt at this very moment" in AE? In AE, it can only mean "to be dressed in a red skirt", right?

Jimbobob · Post by **Jimbobob** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:03 am

metal56 wrote:
The second one sounds wierd to me. Because we both see the dolls, we both know which skirts. I'd say the third one instead.
So for you, "in a red skirt" cannot mean "wearing a red skirt at this very moment", right, JB? Only "in the red skirt" can mean that, IYO, right?

I guess for me it comes down to if I have a picture of what I'm talking about in my head (I know exactly which object I mean) and I expect my listener to as well, I use 'the'.

Otherwise I use 'a'.

So no, I would definitely use 'in a red skirt' - but under different circumstances, and (usually I would think) in conjunction with 'a' for doll - for example:

Mom! I saw a doll in a red skirt at the mall!! I want a doll in a red skirt!

Jimbobob · Post by **Jimbobob** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:06 am

metal56 wrote:These are used:

We wanted to paint the room in a blue.
We wanted to paint the room in the blue.
We wanted to paint the room in a blue colour.
We wanted to paint the room in the blue colour.

...............

to me,

no. 1:

some blue, we don't know quite which shade yet

no. 2:
We're talking with the painter, and we have decided on which color we want - we both know which 'blue' we are referring to

no. 3:
same as number 1

no. 4:
same as number 2

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:08 am

I guess for me it comes down to if I have a picture of what I'm talking about in my head (I know exactly which object I mean) and I expect my listener to as well, I use 'the'.

And if the kid doesn't think that Mum can see the red skirted doll, even though it's right in front of both noses?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:18 am

"What was happening to the world at that time? I don’t remember. My own problems blossomed magnificent and malevolent overnight, like a putrid Jack’s beanstalk. So Clinton saw the devil in a blue dress. So we won a war. "

Could that be changed to "devil in the blue dress"?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:20 am

From 1833, The Old Bailey, Britain:

JAMES COLSON . I am a builder; I live in Shepperton-cottages, about fifty yards from Dixon's. On Sunday, the 13th of January, I saw four men near Dixon's premises, between eleven and twelve o'clock, three in brown great coats, and one in a blue coat and trousers - they were some distance from Mr. Dixon's at one time, and then they drew up; I communicated it to Turthill, my servant - I afterwards saw the man in a blue coat enter Mr. Dixon's house (*)- I was standing at my parlour window, and saw him go into Mr. Dixon's front door;

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/html_ses ... 30214.html

(*) Why didn't the speaker change to "the blue coat" at that point?

Jimbobob · Post by **Jimbobob** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:24 am

metal56 wrote:
I guess for me it comes down to if I have a picture of what I'm talking about in my head (I know exactly which object I mean) and I expect my listener to as well, I use 'the'.
And if the kid doesn't think that Mum can see the red skirted doll, even though it's right in front of both noses?

Then she says "Mom, there's a red doll with a red skirt - see it?" (Both red skirt and the NP Doll with a red skirt recieve the 'a' determiner)

Then when mom says yes:
"I want the doll with the red skirt"

It just seems that in this situation, mixing 'a' and 'the' sounds kind of confusing.

I want the doll in a red skirt

It's as if we both see and know which doll, but for some odd reason, we don't see what the doll is wearing.

So again, all of these are POSSIBLE, but it comes down to context, and I feel that the meaning changes depending upon the determiners chosen.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:30 am

Could we choose to use "the" here?

"Backing from her driveway, turning left, right, and then straight through the green light, onto the busy street out of her neighborhood, she never saw the young mother in a blue van reach back to swat her restless boys. Never saw as the van raced though the red light. Never saw the pale young mother’s mouth turn into an O of surprise. She saw Jon Peter again, wings aflame, as her face made contact with the steering wheel."

jotham · Post by **jotham** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:48 pm

So are you saying that "in a red skirt" cannot mean "is already wearing a red skirt at this very moment" in AE? In AE, it can only mean "to be dressed in a red skirt", right?

I wouldn't restrict definitions so much. On a more general level, I think it has to do with whether the prepositional phrase it adverbial or adjectival. The adverbial phrase, i.e., to be dressed in a red skirt, sounds okay to me. The adjectival doesn't, since it has to do with identification.

We wanted to paint the room in a blue colour.
We wanted to paint the room in the blue colour.

This example is okay because the prepositional phrases are adverbial and doesn't identify anything. It's the adjectival phrases that sounds strange to me.