Any difference in meaning?

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:44 am

woodcutter wrote:But my point is I don't think my last 2 examples can be usefully compared to other pairs. The structure is fairly unique, the fact that the verb in question is "finished" makes the passive/adjective use of "finished" similar to the active, an odd situation.

I'm not sure if I "anticipated" that too:

moi, fluffyhamster wrote:Woodcutter mentioned something about the "salient" difference being 'finished' vs. 'finished with'. Larry also said something about qualitative vs. temporal aspects of 'finished' ('not sentences'). All of which got me thinking about ellipsis:

Finished?
*Finished with?
Finished with your homework?

I am not claiming that this is or should be an "acceptable" test, but it might help us (me!) think up clearer contexts and from them an answer to William's question (which seems to be that there is no real difference, until further context - that is, words - are added to achieve something functionally and, indirectly, make us, the "obervers", that is, "inventors" or "screenplay writers", understand what "was" meant).

That is all just a long-winded way of saying that we can never really know the meaning of decontextualized (pairs of) sentences, and that the only things we can help with are obvious grammatical mistakes like using a transitive verb intransitively.

My...brain...uhn...not...working...anymore...

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:51 am

Feels like we're going in circles.

You two are not only going in circles, you've somehow managed to find a circle that has a dead-end!

Think about this: For all you (and a few others here) have said about the difference between, "Is your homework finished?", and "Are you finished with your homework?", and your insistence that the "with" in there means that the homework might not be completed, but rather the student is just tired of working on it, here is the reality. If Jimmy's mom pokes her head into his study room and asks either question, Jimmy (assuming he's a normal child and not a little punk) will assume she wants to know if the homework is ready to turn in at school tomorrow.

Is there a difference between the sentences? Clearly yes. (One contains "with" and the other doesn't!) Is there much practical, communicative difference? Just as clearly, no. (See above.) Should we analyze its differential nuances? Probably it's a waste of time, frankly. Just because something can be analyzed doesn't necessarily mean that it should be. There are bigger fish to fry.

One of the bigger fish is the difference between two verb forms as posited in William's original post here. Many of you may appreciate that the pragmatic difference between those sentences also is negligible, and I agree. But the difference in meaning between the verb phrases there can be explained, and in another context might be meaningfully significant.

Larry Latham

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:09 am

I don't remember insisting that the "reality" is that adding 'with' means that the homework isn't finished (although others might've), all I did was go off on a "functional" tangent. I think. Hmm, maybe out of my depth here, or trying to swim butterfly when I should stick to "crawling".

Anyway, we all seem to be agreeing on one thing: the need for a context/extra (con)text.

LL wrote:But the difference in meaning between the verb phrases there can be explained, and in another context might be meaningfully significant.

Good point, but maybe we should wait for that other context to explain the difference in verb phrases (that is, let each verb phrase explain itself in the different contexts in which it occurs, or at least try to identify what differing contexts have in common, identify the function of the form before launching into an explanation. Or does you explanation offer a functional explanation already, to a careful reader, Larry? I guess so.

).

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:34 am

What is the difference between

Are you scared of the cat?
Have you scared the cat?

Wiiliam's question is similar to this type of thing, and CONTEXTMAN should stay home for once.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:43 am

woodcutter wrote:What is the difference between

Are you scared of the cat?
Have you scared the cat?

Wiiliam's question is similar to this type of thing, and CONTEXTMAN should stay home for once.

Not sure if its revel or I who is wearing the CONTEXTMAN leotard these days, but whoever flies to the rescue with a SUPER reply, it won't be me this time: I'm off out, you see (hot date with some guys called "Larry and Stephen") - they'll be able to provide me with an alibi should the "Leotarded lunatic" actually appear.

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:16 am

All right, my analogy was rubbish. I'm just trying to emphasize that if we are doing "applied linguistics", and not the real thing, then the question is going to be all about that preposition.

The thing is though, that a mother probably won't say "finished with", because using "with" indicates that it is the person who is finished, not the homework. Using mummy dearests questions as the probable context only clouds the issue. This is what Dennis the Menace from next door will ask.

William · Post by **William** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:56 am

Wow, I am pleased to see that many replies. Actually, I intended to ask for the difference in meaning instead of in terms of 'applied linguistics'.

1) Are you finished with your homework? (less formal)
2) Have you finished your homework? (formal)

To me as a non-native speaker, these two questions are the same if I ask the same questions to my students under normal (most) circumstances. That means whether they have completed their homework.

But if I am asking a friend this question and I have been waiting for him to finish off his tedious homework, that could be a difference in meaning:

1) I am annoyed. I don't care whether he has actually finished his homework. "Can you just stop doing it and leave it till tomorrow?"

2) I am concerned. "Have you successfully completed your homework?"

I looked up the Oxford and Longman dictionary. The word "finished", in the form of adjective without any passive voice sense, means "no longer doing, dealing with, or using something." Therefore, sometimes #1 doesn't imply the same meaning as #2.

That's what I think. I am not sure whether my interpretation makes sense or not. But I believe a context or even intonation does make a difference.

William

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:48 am

Mentioning "Applied Linguistics" was just my silly way of saying "give a nice simple answer".

I really feel a simple answer is enough. "Have you finished" is a question about the homework. "Are you finished with" is a question about the person. The contexts may be imagined accordingly.

From a figure of authority the question may amount to the same thing, for the student is probably not allowed to be finished with their homework until it is finished.

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:07 pm

From a figure of authority the question may amount to the same thing, for the student is probably not allowed to be finished with their homework until it is finished.

This is probably true, and illustrates the value of a pragmatic approach to these questions in ESL/EFL classes. But this...

"Have you finished" is a question about the homework. "Are you finished with" is a question about the person. The contexts may be imagined accordingly.

...is not true, I'm afraid, woodcutter. It's tempting to think about them that way, I'll admit, but your statement doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

To make them easier to examine, convert both from questions to statements, using the "move the first auxiliary" rule. Then you have:

you are finished...

and

you have finished...

The subject is "you", and not "homework" in both cases. So it appears both sentences are about "you." Only one difference can be seen, which is the difference between the effect of "are" in the first case, and "have" in the second. As I've mentioned before, I believe the first of these two is an unmarked, present simple, fact only statement. No issue of time is undertaken in that case. The second sentence contains a verb phrase including the auxiliary "have" together with a past participle verb form, making it a present perfect verb phrase. That, to me, means that not only is a fact stated, but also a temporal element asserting that the homework is "finished" before the present moment.

Please forgive my pedantic, academic focus here. I don't mean to display any kind of "attitude." But since we are teachers here, there are sometimes technical points at issue. I believe there is a technical error in your statement, woodcutter, and merely want to explain clearly why I think so.

Larry Latham

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:49 am

Larry

I agree with this:

I believe the first of these two is an unmarked, present simple, fact only statement. No issue of time is undertaken in that case. The second sentence contains a verb phrase including the auxiliary "have" together with a past participle verb form, making it a present perfect verb phrase. That, to me, means that not only is a fact stated, but also a temporal element asserting that the homework is "finished" before the present moment.

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:25 am

Well, I suppose you're right Larry, but you know me. I ain't never shy of no white lie if I think that lie can clarify.

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:04 am

It's not an issue of who's right, woodcutter. What matters is what's right. Can I ask what it is that was clarified by your earlier post?

Larry Latham

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:28 am

Since the "finished with" sentence may not imply completed homework, I just thought that my explanation would be a reasonable guide to understanding the probable contexts.

But since, as someone mentioned, the "with" structure might imply that you wanted to borrow the homework, maybe not.

Anyway, what SJ said some time ago was enough......

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:32 am

'Kay...

Dementia must be setting in. I'm having trouble keeping up with this thread.

Larry Latham

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:25 am

"finished with" is different from 'finished".

You could have finished your homework but not yet be finished with it since, for example, you may still need it to send of your model answers to all your classmates who pay you the weekly toll in candy.

Equally you can be finished with it, but still leaving it unfinished until the next day.

I'm afraid I find Larry's trotting out the definitions to be unhelpful here.