Investigating applied linguistics fora.

<b>Forum for the discussion of Applied Linguistics </b>

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metal56
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Post by metal56 » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:03 am

<I don't think it would be a bad native teacher who advised such students to use (or seek) an alternative exponent. >

Would it be a better native English teacher who advised the students on using each variant form in its suitable context?

BTW, what is your definition of a native teacher?
Last edited by metal56 on Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:38 am

metal56 wrote:<I don't think it would be a bad native teacher who advised such students to use (or seek) an alternative exponent. >

Would it be a better native English teacher who advisedf the students on using each variant in its suitable context?

BTW, what is your definition of a native teacher?
I think you're missing the point (in relation to the examples I was discussing, at least). I think there are sometimes instances when there really is one word or phrase that does the job so well that the others aren't really "alternatives" at all. Anyway, even where there are several equally "worthy" alternatives competing for our attention, the fact is, there often isn't time to do all of them justice (unless you have or are running a very well-planned course and have consequently anticipated many of the issues that can crop up (due to frequency of communicative need A in frequent context B etc)).

Sorry, but it's nearing 8pm here and I've gotta dash. I'll print out this thread, have a think about it over the weekend, and will try to get back to you ASAP sometime early next week (I find the topic interesting, due no doubt to its seeming "essential" nature).

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:04 am

I think there are sometimes instances when there really is one word or phrase that does the job so well that the others aren't really "alternatives" at all.
And who decides just where to draw the line between necessary and unnecessary?

I'll wait till next week for an answer.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:11 am

metal56 wrote:<(there's surely more in common - shared use of essential items - than not); perhaps your long searches for the lesser rare spotted albino quiasiumerunergative and the like have addled your brains a bit? >

So the "more in common" leads you to teach only the standard BE or AE froms does it? Do you think those forms are suitable for every occasion and for every user?
Thought I'd slide this in here (I've not had time to really read let alone contribute much to other threads recently) - it wouldn't hurt to have a concrete example or two to chew over.

Widdowson in his Defining Issues in ELT asks on whose authority it is that we ("we") accept 'to bring forward' (~ a meeting) but not 'prepone' (apparently quite frequent in Indian English, and in Widdowson's view at least, quite logical, "well-formed" - re. 'postpone'. See also end of next paragraph).

Now, I have no objection to speakers of Indian English coining new usages to fill what they seem to have perceived to be a lexical "gap", and one could even argue that they should be incorporated into dictionaries produced in the west* (perhaps as footnotes to the 'to bring forward' entry? 'In India you may encounter to prepone...') so that learners the world over can be better informed and perhaps even "take their pick" from the ever-richer smorgasbord on offer (beware causing indigestion though, at least among fellow gourmets), but it would be a bit perverse if 'prepone' were taught as though it was the norm outside of India, especially where the classrooms are indeed outside of India and not immediately connected to it for any clear or pressing reason. The reaction of many speakers of English to 'The meeting has been preponed' would likely be 'You mean postponed?'. (And regardless of whether this "clash" would often take place, I wonder if Indian speakers of English would envisage it being a possibility).

It would actually be interesting to know if Anuradha Chepur uses and/or has encountered the one form more often than the other, and which he would teach before or even in exclusive preference to the other given whatever learners and circumstances.
metal56 wrote:And who decides just where to draw the line between necessary and unnecessary?
I don't think any one person (other than the learner) really decides what gets learnt: it's a combination of textbook examples, teachers, wider input and exposure etc. Widdowson however makes it sound like the only reason hardly anyone speaks Indian English outside that subcontinent is simply due to a shadowy blanket linguistico-political decision to exclude, regardless of IE's status in the world (for discussion of which, see the following thread: http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/v ... php?t=6866 - 'Damage', initially about texting on mobiles, but soon switches to IE).

The truth is more that there has been and always will be some linguistic give-and-take, provided there's a genuine gap for the loanword in the absorbing language.

Still, I have to wonder if there is as much chance nowadays of linguistic cross-fertilization given that the days of colonialization (and some form of prolonged social contact) are over.

Sorry that I haven't discussed what a native speaker is, metal, but I see you've made some connected posts in your 'Whose property?' thread. If I do have time later to start coming from anywhere it'll probably mainly be with reference to what Alan Davies has to say about it (in his contribution to the Blackwell Handbook of AL). I could also maybe poke my nose in his 2003 book on the NS, if I see it in the bookstore (won't buy it, tho).

* http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/v ... php?t=6772 (Thread entitled 'A dictionary of English?', where metal asks if the OED can - should? - keep up with all the 'English' flying around the world now).
Last edited by fluffyhamster on Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:32 am

<but it would be a bit perverse if 'prepone' were taught as though it was the norm outside of India, especially where the classrooms are outside of India and not connected to it for any reason. >

Do Indian people only do business in India?
It would actually be interesting to know if Anuradha Chepur uses and/or has encountered the one form more often than the other, and which he would teach before or even in exclusive preference to the other given whatever learners and circumstances.
It would be interesting to know if he works in the international business arena. That's were one would use a term such as "prepone".
Widdowson however makes it sound like the only reason hardly anyone speaks Indian English outside that subcontinent is simply due to a shadowy blanket linguistico-political decision to exclude, regardless of IE's status in the world (for discussion of which,
So why do you think that more people do not speak Indian English?

BTW, I asked for your, personal, definition, of a native-speaker.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:43 am

Well, we'll need to see what AC has to say about all this before we start lashing each other with olive branches. Personally, I can see the appeal of 'prepone', but it'd be an uphill struggle to get the millions and millions of other English speakers to recognize let alone themselves use it, considering how few of them are likely to have their noses stuck in stuff like Widdowson or that future enlightened, enlarged (and thus more expensive) OED we're all waiting for with baited breath.
metal56 wrote:So why do you think that more people do not speak Indian English?
Could it possibly be that they're not Indian (and don't even meet that many real true curry-eating fire-breathing Indians)? LOL
BTW, I asked for your, personal, definition, of a native-speaker.
That's a good one coming from the forum's champion links poster - you're not exactly one who seems to like share his honest-to-goodness own thoughts rather than or in addition to quoting others...or should we take it that you consider the stuff you post to always be so earth-shattering that no extra comment is ever called for, least of all from you, the "seeker and conveyor" (of the truth). :o

Me, regarding Davies, I was going to see what he has to say before adding (it to) my own thoughts, but if you'd prefer me to start waffling right away, presenting my very own pearls of wisdom, I sure can (wow, who'd've thought you of all people would be asking me to continue doing what you reckon I so love doing on these forums! :lol: :wink: ).

Anuradha Chepur
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Post by Anuradha Chepur » Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:24 am

I hadn't read this post earlier.
Yes, I've encountered the Indian coinage 'the meeting was preponed' many a time. I might have used it myself too, until I realised it's Indian coinage and native speakers say 'the meeting was advanced'.
There could be teachers who are not aware of this and they might teach the word 'prepone'.
CIEFL trained teachers would stop people from using this and other coinage. Accepting it as a word is left to the discretion of dictionary makers.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:46 am

Thanks for the feedback, AC.

Where does 'to bring a meeting forward' rank in your preferences? I "recognize" 'advance', but myself would probably go for 'bring forward'. Perhaps this is a difference between AmE and BrE (although I wouldn't want to bet on it!).

Widdowson (and perhaps metal also) implies that words such as 'prepone' should at the least be included in descriptions of "English", but that strikes me as linguistically quite naive a view to take if the word isn't particularly widespread outside of its particular community (in this case, India) - I mean, that's what dictionaries produced in India are for, isn't it? Why should it concern users of dictionaries intended for the international market?

Widdowson would probably reply that given half a chance (by having the honour of being incorporated into EFL dictionaries and the like), 'prepone' could well take off internationally, but (as I've said before elsewhere on this forum), this would at the very least distract learners, and worse (some might say better) possibly eventually result in an increase in their learning burden ("Bring on the diversity!" some shout. But in this instance at least, to what functional effect, I ask?)

Scribes in ancient China were commissioned to cut down on the plethora of forms, not encourage more, but here we are hearing calls for increasing the "range" of English by pure political fiat/"goodwill" rather than through more natural forms of linguistic selection.
Last edited by fluffyhamster on Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Anuradha Chepur
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Post by Anuradha Chepur » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:01 am

Now that I know that some native speakers say 'to bring forward a meeting,' I would add it to my repertoire and also pass on the information to my students the next time 'prepone' pops up.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:09 am

That's a good one coming from the forum's champion links poster - you're not exactly one who seems to like share his honest-to-goodness own thoughts rather than or in addition to quoting others...or should we take it that you consider the stuff you post to always be so earth-shattering that no extra comment is ever called for, least of all from you, the "seeker and conveyor" (of the truth).
That's rather long way round to go to say "I, Fluffe, do not know how to define a native teacher even though I use the term all the time".
Last edited by metal56 on Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:10 am

Heh, thanks again AC. I was expanding my post somewhat as you posted. Hope I don't sound too tough on 'prepone' LOL.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:16 am

CIEFL trained teachers would stop people from using this and other coinage.
How would one stop a person from using a word? And can you give examples of other coinage that may be forbidden by CIEFL teachers?
native speakers say 'the meeting was advanced'.


What percentage of native speakers say that in the world of business ? And there is a tendency in International English learning and use to ignore, or at least minimalise, the native speaker expressions such as phrasal verbs (e.g. bring forward). Therefore, the use of propone, as the antonym, of postpone makes absolute sense.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:35 am

Widdowson (and perhaps metal also) implies that words such as 'prepone' should at the least be included in descriptions of "English", but that strikes me as linguistically quite naive a view to take if the word isn't particularly widespread outside of its particular community (in this case, India) -
I've said again and again that such vocabulary can be taught, or attention can be brought to such, if one is teaching students who may presently, or later, be working with Indians in the business world. The same if I'm working with a group of students who will be heading for the USA or Australia when the course ends. Prepare your students well by considering the context and THEIR NEEDS.
Why should it concern users of dictionaries intended for the international market?
Is India excluded from the international market? And do you think there is a homogenous English form being used throughout the world in daily international business? If so, what is that form and why should "bring forward" be included and "prepone" not?

Language use is often a battelfield. Forms emerge, live and die daily. Maybe "prepone", if not blocked by the likes of you, will eventually substitute, or equal, "bring forward/advance". Are you worried about contamination of your variant? Or can't you be assed to discover emerging forms and pass those on to students who may be confronted with such in the future?

And, how does a word like "prepone" remain within its particular community if members of that community are now doing business on an international level that will probably bring them to the point of being a super-power in business?
Last edited by metal56 on Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

Anuradha Chepur
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Post by Anuradha Chepur » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:38 am

Fluffy, I'm myself tough on prepone and coinage.

Metal, in the teaching context, we correct our students. Otherwise, (when it is not our business) we ignore it, just as native speakers would.

I have to find this handout I have, which has a list of coinage and usage and I can post it all. Give me a little time. :)

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:44 am

Anuradha Chepur wrote:Fluffy, I'm myself tough on prepone and coinage.

Metal, in the teaching context, we correct our students. Otherwise, (when it is not our business) we ignore it, just as native speakers would.
Metal, in the teaching context, we correct our students
.

And what reason do you give to your students when telling them not to use "prepone"? Do you also tell them not to use "bring forward"?

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