What to teach and what not.

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jotham
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Post by jotham » Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:49 pm

metal56 wrote:If one considers it funny, on an Applied Linguistics forum, to compare attempts at a global/international English to language used by NES 3-year-olds, I must have missed the point.
It's called a joke, you know, he he...ha ha. Oh, wait, that requires art, rhetoric, and style. He wasn't really serious when he said that. Oh, I remember now, you're bogged down in the science and analysis of the semantics, could it be?...oh no...it's...it's...it's SPOCK! Nothing computes. (We just need the little ears: :evil: ) Is that why they call ya "metal"? :lol:
I'm just joking (maybe mocking :o — especially if your dialect doesn't laugh). But really, we have to lighten up on the seriousness sometimes. We can't be wound up tight all the time.
Last edited by jotham on Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:54 pm

It's called a joke, you know, he he...ha ha. Oh, wait, that requires art, rhetoric, and style.
You think the comment about 3-year-olds had all of those elements?
But really, we have to lighten up on the seriousness sometimes.
At whose expense?

Compare the TEFL machine and many of its teachers, managers, book publishers and this situation:
Buddha says: `Respect others', the Thai media says: `Make a mockery of others for money'.
Now Buddha himself had art, rhetoric and so on. He was also up for fun and laughter, but not with the reason of maintaining power - fading power at that (see articles on the growth of International/global English and the waning of native Standard forms). If I had a dime for all the times I've heard teachers and so called linguists guffawing at newer forms of English, I'd be a rich man. To me, there's no art, rhetoric and so on involved in such practices, just cheap-shots and a desperate call to the rank of natives to try and hold on to a language they consider theirs and theirs alone. In five to ten years from now, such natives may find themselves out of a job or wanting to desperately learn to teach global English forms.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:40 am

metal56 wrote:If I had a dime for all the times I've heard teachers and so called linguists guffawing at newer forms of English, I'd be a rich man. To me, there's no art, rhetoric and so on involved in such practices, just cheap-shots and a desperate call to the rank of natives to try and hold on to a language they consider theirs and theirs alone. In five to ten years from now, such natives may find themselves out of a job or wanting to desperately learn to teach global English forms.
Who's guffawing (or mocking, or...)? All I for one have wondered aloud is what will best serve learners in general (because I like to have something more general and wider underlying whatever is more specialized)...and yes, obviously, that isn't necessarily the supposedly "correct" forms of (previous) "standards" (such as 'Thou shalt use whom here', to allude to another thread).

I'm not sure if 'in five to ten years' the average native speaker's English will be so petrified that they'll have that much trouble adjusting to whatever "global English forms" may (or may not have) gained widespread currency.

By the way, can we have some examples of these forms that have apparently leapt from one non-native/non-standard variety to another (the other being geographically removed from the first) without native English speakers anywhere even knowing about them, much less acting as intermediaries or assisting in their spread.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:19 am

I'm not sure if 'in five to ten years' the average native speaker's English will be so petrified that they'll have that much trouble adjusting to whatever "global English forms" may (or may not have) gained widespread currency.

Reports from students say that NES business people generally find it very hard to adjust to a more simplified version of their language. That, or they simply avoid adjusting or outright refuse to do so. As a result, many business English students begin to prefer doing business with NNES.

How many NES business people would know the details of the statement in red here?

"Our specialty is editing your documents into a form of international business English, expertly tailored for Asian readers....The Global English Editor.

http://www.nzwwa.com/business/biz-consu ... /index.htm
By the way, can we have some examples of these forms that have apparently leapt from one non-native/non-standard variety to another (the other being geographically removed from the first) without native English speakers anywhere even knowing about them, much less acting as intermediaries or assisting in their spread.
Are you asking for examples of International/Global English/Globish/Indlish, etc.? Not sure who stated the last part of your paragraph.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:16 am

Actually, I was going to say, that was sort of a trick (or silly, even LOL) question there, because yes, if there were native speakers who were aware of a form, then it would right away be classifiable as known (by somebody) rather than totally unknown...anyway, what I was trying to hint at was that I'm assuming that there's a lone linguist somewhere keeping tabs on stuff like this (maybe he'll then shreik 'The end is nigh!').

The thing that really jumped out on the link you provided was something for 'Genital Wart Treatment' (I closed the link pretty quickly after that - not that I have GTs). Are these 'expert tailors' (editors) native speakers, or asians (mock mock, sneer sneer - playing my assigned role here)? Oh, and 'Asia' is quite a big area.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:39 am

anyway, what I was trying to hint at was that I'm assuming that there's a lone linguist somewhere keeping tabs on stuff like this (maybe he'll then shreik 'The end is nigh!').
He/She may, but he would be mistaken in doing so. The Standard variant, which so many teach and want to hold in place, will survive alongside other variants, but its teachers and users will have to think more about the suitabilty of its contextual use. Those who wish to do business internationally will have to adjust to local variants if the locals either refuse to learn the Standard/"native" speaker form or they only know the local form ("local" there could be an area as large as Asia). Some NES may be able to adjust easily, but many others will need tuition in other variants. Who will tutor them? You? Me? The speakers of the variant in question? I hope I will be able to do so, as my job is my livelihood and I want to fight to keep it. How about you?

Still not sure of your stance on all this, Fluff. Do you feel that there is something rather silly about the discussion? If so, what?

Anuradha Chepur
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Post by Anuradha Chepur » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:03 am

If I am not disturbing the flow of thought here, may I add something.
I never recommend that NNES varieties be taught. But I would say
that if you are really attached to your language, it should interest you
to know how it is used by NNES, and how it got modified by them, etc.
I speak Telugu. It amuses me when I hear Muslims from the old town (who speak Hindi/Urdu) or other non-natives speak in Telugu. I am amused at their distorted pronunciation and vocabulary. It makes me happy to see them try hard to speak my language.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:10 am

I'm sure there are very capable local English teachers in many countries (although I don't know if they teach every last variety of ESP). The thing is, however, that even very capable users (presumably teachers, or capable of becoming teachers), such as our friend AC in India, still seem to "bend the knee" to native speakers, so I wonder just how out of a job native speakers will really be for the forseeable future (assuming said NSs are tactful, aware of local variants etc), at least in their 'informant' role.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:11 am

Anuradha Chepur wrote:
I never recommend that NNES varieties be taught.


Why?

And how about this:

"The non-core items are not only unimportant for intelligibility but also socially more appropriate. After all, native speakers have different accents depending on the region where they were born and live. So why should non-native speakers of an international language not be allowed to do the same?"

http://www.teachingenglish.org.uk/think ... lish.shtml


But I would say
that if you are really attached to your language, it should interest you
to know how it is used by NNES, and how it got modified by them, etc.
Some NES speakers would question your use of "got" there, Anuradha. :wink:
I speak Telugu. It amuses me when I hear Muslims from the old town (who speak Hindi/Urdu) or other non-natives speak in Telugu. I am amused at their distorted pronunciation and vocabulary. It makes me happy to see them try hard to speak my language.
Would it still be your language if, say 100 years from now, those Hindi/Urdu speakers were the majority, decided to use Telegu instead of Hindi/Urdu and used it in their own way?
Last edited by metal56 on Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:12 am

Speak of the devil!

Anuradha Chepur
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Post by Anuradha Chepur » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:15 am

I think, metal, I already gave my opinion on why I don't recommend NNES varieties, on another thread, a few weeks back.

And 100 years later, I won't be there, so how can I call it my language? :P

Anuradha Chepur
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Post by Anuradha Chepur » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:17 am

Speak of the devil!


and AC appears!

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:21 am

:P

Anuradha Chepur
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Post by Anuradha Chepur » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:26 am

But, hey, it's not "bending the knee" to native speakers.
It's about teaching them what is more widely recognised and
used where they are going to go and in the jobs they are going
to take up.

Anuradha Chepur
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Post by Anuradha Chepur » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:28 am

. . . and what I/we admire is the language.
Who said we admire native speakers? :wink:

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