What the H is a sentence?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:36 pm

Is this a sentence as you define the word "sentence"?

Very sharp-pointed, the spear thrown at Carruthers yesterday.

wjserson · Post by **wjserson** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:04 am

No, not according to my definition. There's no active verb in that "ensemble of words". Adding one would make it one though.

EX. "Very sharp-pointed, the spear thrown at Carruthers yesterday...

... hit his eye."
...hurt him tremendously."

or you could add "the spear (was) thrown at Carruthers yesterday."

The possibilities seem endless to me.

Now, to brace myself for the rest of the postings...

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:13 am

I agree with you wjserson, but I think I would also add, "Very sharp pointed, the spear was thrown at Carruthers yesterday." as a possibility, although it wouldn't have been the style I most likely would have chosen, had I actually wanted to convey that information.

Oops, you already did add that one.

Harzer · Post by **Harzer** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:41 am

I accept that as a truncated sentence in that it has a subject (the spear thrown at Carruthers) a verb (was) and an extension (very sharp-pointed).

The fact that the verb was unstated does not disqualify it from that status any more than the fact the subject is often unstated in Spanish sentences disqualifies them. In fact it is questionable whether 'be' is a verb at all and not something else. It does have formal features like person and tense forms, but does it have any meaning other than identity?

Many languages dispense with the verb 'to be' altogether (try Indonesian, Thai etc) and many languages that have a verb 'to be' allow its omission (Slavonic languages).

What about things like "back already?"? Once the 'missing bits' are restored it is seen to be a sentence, so why quibble?

Harzer

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:12 am

I wouldn't consider it a sentence myself, but nor would I lose much sleep over it. While we've been taught, for good reasons, to write in sentences, it's very common not to speak in them and I would expect metal's example to be spoken rather than written. Does it matter whether it's a sentence or not?

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:16 am

(It was) very sharp-pointed(?), the spear (that was) thrown at Carruthers yesterday.

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:01 am

I think it is a sentence, but of course it is an unusual one (making it all the more interesting

). Although it's not as common in English as in Chinese, the object (or the object phrase) of the verb can be transposed to the front of the sentence where it becomes the topic. Other examples might include:

In a bad mood, the boss was today.

Disquieting, this film.

Disappointing, is how I'd put it.

Handsome guy, that one!

Do you think these qualify as sentences?

Larry Latham

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:56 am

This stuff reminds me of Carter and McCarthy's "tails". When I was browsing through their Exploring Grammar in Context, I got the feeling that it would be quite hard to get students producing these spontaneously (that is, they'd probably switch back to using more "traditional" sentences/word orders even after having studied extracts from native speech, although obviously, the awareness-raising, the "training of the ear", would be beneficial and help them appreciate that little bit more when they hear native speakers yammering away in the real world). "Heads", meanwhile, would probably be easier and/or have a more clearly useful function to play, so they'd be worth spending more time on (not sure if speakers of topic-prominent languages should be fed too much of them, though!).

What do you guys think?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:37 am

lolwhites wrote:I wouldn't consider it a sentence myself, but nor would I lose much sleep over it. While we've been taught, for good reasons, to write in sentences, it's very common not to speak in them and I would expect metal's example to be spoken rather than written. Does it matter whether it's a sentence or not?

As long as students know when they have to use "complete" sentences or minor/truncated ones, my answer to your question is "no". Yet, some native speakers on other fora insist to the point of the ridiculous that we do not call such items "a sentence".

I'm trying to introduce and get students to use minor sentences (sentence fragments/fragmeted sentences if you like, but they're not labels I would use). One native speaking (vet) poster is attempting to subvert the whole thread by accusing me of creating falsehoods by calling my example a sentence (of any kind).

In the past the guy has even insisted that the "correct" way to dialogue is as in the second example below.

Stevie: Where are you going?
Mark: To Manchester.
Stevie: When are you leaving?
Mark: Early tomorrow morning.
Stevie: Who's going with you?
Mark: My brother Tim and his girlfriend Nancy.

---------

Stevie: Where are you going?
Mark: I'm going to Manchester.
Stevie: When are you leaving?
Mark: I'm leaving early tomorrow morning.
Stevie: Who's going with you?
Mark: My brother Tim and his girlfriend Nancy are going with me.

Normally, for me, I would have no problem with his prescriptionist's attitude, but many students believe his take on things is The Word. So many students are missing opportunities to extend their possibilities regarding use.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:41 am

fluffyhamster wrote:(It was) very sharp-pointed(?), the spear (that was) thrown at Carruthers yesterday.

Exactly. Or, if someone has misheard you, as was suggested by a poster on another forum:

A: What does "very shark-appointed sphere" mean?

B: (I said) very sharp-pointed, the spear (that was) thrown at Carruthers yesterday.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:43 am

LarryLatham wrote:I think it is a sentence, but of course it is an unusual one (making it all the more interesting ). Although it's not as common in English as in Chinese, the object (or the object phrase) of the verb can be transposed to the front of the sentence where it becomes the topic. Other examples might include:

In a bad mood, the boss was today.

Disquieting, this film.

Disappointing, is how I'd put it.

Handsome guy, that one!

Do you think these qualify as sentences?

Larry Latham

Minor sentences, yes.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:48 pm

In the past the guy has even insisted that the "correct" way to dialogue is as in the second example below.

Stevie: Where are you going?
Mark: To Manchester.
Stevie: When are you leaving?
Mark: Early tomorrow morning.
Stevie: Who's going with you?
Mark: My brother Tim and his girlfriend Nancy.

---------

Stevie: Where are you going?
Mark: I'm going to Manchester.
Stevie: When are you leaving?
Mark: I'm leaving early tomorrow morning.
Stevie: Who's going with you?
Mark: My brother Tim and his girlfriend Nancy are going with me.

This guy is unbelievable. I would most definitely have a problem with his attitude - he's teaching his students to talk like Mr Spock and they'll sound ridiculous if they ever visit an English speaking country. Even if he thinks such utterances are in some way "better" (which they aren't - has he given you one good reason?), his job is to teach the language as it's spoken, not how he would like it spoken.

And you can quote me on that.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:37 pm

lolwhites wrote:
In the past the guy has even insisted that the "correct" way to dialogue is as in the second example below.

Stevie: Where are you going?
Mark: To Manchester.
Stevie: When are you leaving?
Mark: Early tomorrow morning.
Stevie: Who's going with you?
Mark: My brother Tim and his girlfriend Nancy.

---------

Stevie: Where are you going?
Mark: I'm going to Manchester.
Stevie: When are you leaving?
Mark: I'm leaving early tomorrow morning.
Stevie: Who's going with you?
Mark: My brother Tim and his girlfriend Nancy are going with me.
This guy is unbelievable. I would most definitely have a problem with his attitude - he's teaching his students to talk like Mr Spock and they'll sound ridiculous if they ever visit an English speaking country. Even if he thinks such utterances are in some way "better" (which they aren't - has he given you one good reason?), his job is to teach the language as it's spoken, not how he would like it spoken.

And you can quote me on that.

The thing is, he isn't even a teacher. He's a vet from NY.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:16 pm

Do we go round curing sick animals? Tell him to stick to what he knows. Better still, maybe he should take a leaf from his vet colleages' book and have his hand up a cow's behind rather than his head, which appears to be the case at the moment.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:40 pm

lolwhites wrote:

Do we go round curing sick animals? Tell him to stick to what he knows. Better still, maybe he should take a leaf from his vet colleages' book and have his hand up a cow's behind rather than his head, which appears to be the case at the moment.