Time to decide what a native speaker is.

[JuanTwoThree]

Still Googling!

This incredibly long intro is a useful round-up. I've taken out all the sources and shortened it a bit. Here's the link.

http://kitkat.wvu.edu:8080/files/2685/F ... thesis.pdf

" Kramsch defines the native speaker as someone who is accepted as such by the group that created the native speaker/nonnative speaker distinction, regardless of birthplace. ... from a sociolinguistic point of view, the distinction between native speaker-nonnative speaker is “…one of confidence and identity” The author states that a proper definition of the term NS does not exist.

Medgyes describes native speakers as “…potentially more accomplished users of English than nonnative speakers”. Medgyes speaks of the difficulty in defining who a native speaker is. He asks where a nine-year-old child, having moved to the United States at age five, of foreign parents, would fit – NS or NNS?

Widdowson asks: “who are these native speakers [of English]?” . He suggests one answer might be the English. After all, the language originated in England.

The Longman Dictionary of Language Teaching & Applied Linguistics defines the native speaker as “a person considered as a speaker of his or her NATIVE LANGUAGE” .......

Beyond definition of the term itself, authors have explored several issues relatedto NSs and NNSs and the teaching of languages. Some of these issues include credibility, marginalization, competence, stereotype, race, identity, difficulty,strength, and weakness. Unlike their native teacher counterparts, NNSs seem to face more challenges in the ESL classroom by virtue of being identified as a nonnative speaker of English. Amin shows that having an accent associated with First World nations such as Britain, the United States, and Canada renders speakers a higher status. Similarly, Thuy states that: “The accent with which a foreign born person speaks English can create a favorable or unfavorable impression on a number of Anglo-Americans”. According to Thuy, the accent of the NNS is often taken into consideration by many institutions in the hiring process.

The topic of degree of nativeness was explored in a study conducted by Liu. Some of the participants in his study had difficulty in labeling themselves, or accepting the label NNS. Some of his subjects had been studying English since the ages of six, nine, and ten. Accordingly, Kachru and Nelson advise professionals in the teaching of English to speakers of other languages (TESOL) not to hold too tightly to the dichotomy of native speaker versus nonnative speaker. They base this warning largely on their awareness of the diversity of users and uses of English today.

Braine discusses professional credibility and marginalization of these professionals in the hiring process in North America. Similarly, in Milambiling’s survey , one TESOL student said some English as a second language learners may be dissatisfied when having a NNS teacher because they spent a lot of money coming here [United States] for “the real thing”.


..... some language students create a stereotype of what they believe the authentic ESL teacher should look like. Amin found that some students demonstrated preference for white teachers, assuming only those teachers could be native speakers of English. In a study conducted in the United States, Shaw had similar findings.

Teaching in an unfamiliar setting is another difficulty some NNSs encounter. In their study, Polio and Wilson-Duffy noted that international TESOL graduate students are often faced with the challenge of teaching in an unfamiliar context – one in which they were neither brought up nor educated........

Rampton suggests that the concept of expertise be used in place of native speakership.

Kachru and Nelson write about problematic issues related to being regarded as nonnative speaker. The authors maintain that attitudinal problems are embedded in the meaning of the nonnative speaker label or English as a second language speaker. They state that “it is almost unavoidable that anyone would take ‘second’ as less worthy, in the sense, for example, that coming in second in a race is not as good as coming in first”.

...... advantages of being a NNS have been mentioned in the literature. Reves and Medgyes found that a big strength NNSs have is being able to not only predict their students’ difficulties, but also to estimate their potential. The authors add that this sensitivity increases in the EFL context, where NNSs share the linguistic, cultural and educational background with their students. ....

The results in McNeil’s study show that teachers who share their students’ first language (L1) “…are at a distinct advantage when identifying their learners’ vocabulary needs” (p. 530).

Medgyes argues that only NNSs can serve as models of what a successful learner should be. He claims that some of the NNSs’ strengths are due to their learning of English as a second language. Widdowson seems to hold a similar opinion. “They [NNSs] have been through the process of coming to terms with English as another language”. He says that the NNS is the one who has had more experience as an English language learner.

Liu reports that some students were not so encouraged by the fact that their NNS teachers had great English proficiency. In fact, they were more intimidated than encouraged. The author claims that because the teachers had mastered the language, the students feared the demands the teachers might have on their students. On the other hand, Polio and Wilson-Duffy found that novice NNS teachers sensed their students’ negative attitudes toward being taught by a NNS. "

[JuanTwoThree]

Phew!

FWIW. I think the "expertise" thing is the answer. The world has got too complicated for any sharp NS/NNS division to be easily made. So what's expertise?

[Andrew Patterson]

Widdowson asks: “who are these native speakers [of English]?” . He suggests one answer might be the English. After all, the language originated in England.

So being born and raised in Cardiff, Wales by monolingual English speakers, I'm not now a native speaker of English. Good grief!

[metal56]

Widdowson asks: “who are these native speakers [of English]?” . He suggests one answer might be the English. After all, the language originated in England.

So being born and raised in Cardiff, Wales by monolingual English speakers, I'm not now a native speaker of English. Good grief!

My Irish-born parents are not native speakers? Good grief x 2!

[metal56]

" Kramsch defines the native speaker as someone who is accepted as such by the group that created the native speaker/nonnative speaker distinction, regardless of birthplace. ... from a sociolinguistic point of view, the distinction between native speaker-nonnative speaker is “…one of confidence and identity” The author states that a proper definition of the term NS does not exist.

As I said on another thread, different gropus have different definitions for NS and NNS, This means that to one group I may be classed as a NS and to another not. So, that leaves me asking what I should call myself.

[JuanTwoThree]

I take it to mean that you're an NS if NS's and NNS's generally think you are one. After all both sets of people are the group that created the distinction.

I think I read somewhere that Widdowson was talking to a group of American linguists and wasn't being entirely serious.

[lolwhites]

It reminds me of the Equal Opportunities questionnaires which ask people to describe their ethnic origin by saying Do you consider yourself white/black/asian.... Maybe you are a native speaker if you consider yourself one.

It seems something of a recursive definition to say "You are an NS if other NSs consider you as such." After all, who said they were NSs. My rather tentative (read made up more or less off the top of my head) definition on another thread is pretty imperfect but noone here took issue with it (though maybe the debate got sidetracked before anyone had the chance). To save you searching again, I said:

Off the top of my head, I'd say something like a native speaker is someone who acquired the language from an early age, in their local community, without formal instruction (note my tentativeness).

[eslweb]

Well as far as teaching is concerned... If you can convincingly argue that you are a native speaker with your employers / potential employers that's probably good enough

By the way the British Council has a sneaky side-step to this question by saying you must have an excellent knowledge of English language and a knowledge of contemporary British culture.

James

[metal56]

By the way the British Council has a sneaky side-step to this question by saying you must have an excellent knowledge of English language and a knowledge of contemporary British culture.

James

And yet the majority of British Council teachers have lived outside Britain for many years. Hope they read the papers.

[fluffyhamster]

A native speaker has the expertise and knowledge (and not just linguistically) to put other native speakers at ease - there's no need to "stand on ceremony", "watch what you say" etc. Just my quick tuppenny's worth.

[metal56]

A native speaker has the expertise and knowledge (and not just linguistically) to put other native speakers at ease - there's no need to "stand on ceremony", "watch what you say" etc. Just my quick tuppenny's worth.

So, for example, a person from Yorkshire who had an accent and regional vocabulary/grammar would not be a native speaker in the company of, say, an Oxbridge educated, RP user, right?

[fluffyhamster]

Time for my thruppeny's worth, it seems (i.e. allow me to rephrase slightly)...

Native speakers and non-native speakers don't seem able (at least not in Japan, and to some extent, China - two places I've experience of) to put each other at ease in the same way that a native speaker can another native speaker (disregarding dialectal and regional variations between the pair of NSs - it's not as if many wouldn't be able or willing to speak the standard at all, is it); that is, conversations between native and non-native (especially when they're both teachers) can be (or at least seem) all so oh polite.

[JuanTwoThree]

Might an NS be somebody who swears in that language when their finger is caught in a car-door?

Or somebody who when they are lost for words or for how to express an idea it's usually and genuinely not because they are being blocked by their running through the options in another language at the same time? Which is not the same as only knowing a word in a second language.

Or is it someone with no trace of an accent when they speak?


It wouldn't explain bilingualism though, nor 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants with an English accent in part originally derived from their family's 1st language, nor the fact that I do occasionally forget a word in English though I know it in Spanish.

Can you become a NS? Was Conrad a native speaker? Is Schwarzenegger?

[metal56]

Might an NS be somebody who swears in that language when their finger is caught in a car-door?

That would mean that I am no longer a NS. Now, I automatically use "joder" even when in England.

[Anuradha Chepur]

If I may add a couple of my own definitions:

A native speaker is one who knows he is one, and who knows who is not one.

A person is a native speaker of his L1.