Well do we like PPP or not?
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fluffyhamster
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It would be good if you gave your own opinion 
on the matter, Meso, but I'll bite.
PPP-like methodology could well be an effective and efficient option, for well-informed* bilingual teachers working with students who share an L1** (i.e. in more genuinely TEFLy settings), but how many teachers working in ELT at any one point actually are like that (or care to throw off CELTA dictates even when they are ostensibly more experienced and should know better)? For many, PPP is a good way to appear to be teaching effectively whilst doing little more than "going through the motions"; certainly, the demonstrations and actual lessons that I've seen in training, books, and whilst working have always left me pretty cold. It would be hard to think of a methodology more inimical to encouraging genuine interaction, and less patronizing, than PPP, and I am frankly amazed that so many students don't just save their money and get some decent books instead (oh but wait, if they'd done that they wouldn't have enrolled in classes in the first place!).
*And thus capable of contextualizing language well (accurately and convincingly, resulting in useful learning).
**In multilingual ELT-y settings, I suspect that a lot of the patter goes over the students' heads, or in one ear and out the other, even when it is valuable, carefully considered stuff.
on the matter, Meso, but I'll bite.PPP-like methodology could well be an effective and efficient option, for well-informed* bilingual teachers working with students who share an L1** (i.e. in more genuinely TEFLy settings), but how many teachers working in ELT at any one point actually are like that (or care to throw off CELTA dictates even when they are ostensibly more experienced and should know better)? For many, PPP is a good way to appear to be teaching effectively whilst doing little more than "going through the motions"; certainly, the demonstrations and actual lessons that I've seen in training, books, and whilst working have always left me pretty cold. It would be hard to think of a methodology more inimical to encouraging genuine interaction, and less patronizing, than PPP, and I am frankly amazed that so many students don't just save their money and get some decent books instead (oh but wait, if they'd done that they wouldn't have enrolled in classes in the first place!).
*And thus capable of contextualizing language well (accurately and convincingly, resulting in useful learning).
**In multilingual ELT-y settings, I suspect that a lot of the patter goes over the students' heads, or in one ear and out the other, even when it is valuable, carefully considered stuff.
Last edited by fluffyhamster on Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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woodcutter
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Your postings are getting a touch eccentric Mesomorph. Are you feeling OK?
You know PPP, outside of this loopy playground called ESL teaching, refers to purchasing power parity, or possibly point-to-point protocol. Sorry ESL! Jargon already taken.
Within ESL it is "Presentation Practice Production" which is the basic procedure most people are working with, especially if they using a standard book. It's OK. Usually better than walking in and discussing CNN, in my opinion. Not much to intellectualize about though.
My university prefers WHIPPEA. Don't ask. I forget. Same kind of thing with knobs on.
You know PPP, outside of this loopy playground called ESL teaching, refers to purchasing power parity, or possibly point-to-point protocol. Sorry ESL! Jargon already taken.
Within ESL it is "Presentation Practice Production" which is the basic procedure most people are working with, especially if they using a standard book. It's OK. Usually better than walking in and discussing CNN, in my opinion. Not much to intellectualize about though.
My university prefers WHIPPEA. Don't ask. I forget. Same kind of thing with knobs on.
I agree with a lot of FH's opinion.
Also with WC when he says it is OK.
Works with L1 a bit.
Still a bit restrictive and patronising though.
For higher levels it is totally restrictive and productions often lack the 'structures' taught in earlier parts of the lesson with no negativity attached.
PPP is an easy way to train teachers, an easy way to sell lessons; an easy way to prepare courses, make money, and manage institutions.
Factory teaching IMO.
If you are already a teacher you can see other ways of doing things but have to adapt to knowing less.
However if this is what learners want and they find it useful (do they???) who am I to argue?
Thanks for your input FH, WC.
Also with WC when he says it is OK.
Works with L1 a bit.
Still a bit restrictive and patronising though.
For higher levels it is totally restrictive and productions often lack the 'structures' taught in earlier parts of the lesson with no negativity attached.
PPP is an easy way to train teachers, an easy way to sell lessons; an easy way to prepare courses, make money, and manage institutions.
Factory teaching IMO.
If you are already a teacher you can see other ways of doing things but have to adapt to knowing less.
However if this is what learners want and they find it useful (do they???) who am I to argue?
Thanks for your input FH, WC.
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fluffyhamster
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Factory teaching is a great way to describe it, Meso! Thanks for the phrase (I've used 'factory lighting' to describe Japanese restaurants, but I hadn't really thought about 'factory teaching' before - mainly because I've always tried to avoid doing it, despite what my CTEFLA trainers, some books etc seemed to be recommending).
Some words that I should've used in my above post are 'lecture' and 'translation' - nothing wrong with an informative, high quality lecture-style presentation (presentation phase), especially if it can be done at least partly in the students' (plural) first language.
One very good point that you've raised Meso is whether PPP is what learners want and find useful. My first thought is, what choice are they really given? As you say, PPP is such 'an easy* way to train teachers, sell lessons, prepare courses, make money, and manage institutions' that it would hardly be in the ELT industry's interests to even hint that there could be alternatives. PPP and Direct Method etc is sold as the best thing since Pop-Tarts (TM), and the prospective students literally have to buy it**, as do trainee teachers, then the same teachers working for profit-hungry bosses. The sad result is that many teachers don't rock the boat or simply can't be bothered, and therefore stop developing as much as they might (both personally, and in terms of materials and methods), to the detriment of their teaching and their students' learning; sadder still is that some of these people end up in positions of authority and perpetuate the somewhat vicious cycle. The thought that better methods (and the fact is that PPP can be bettered, with a little effort) could be just as if not more profitable (and perhaps attract a better "class" of student - more serious, hard-working, willing to pay more for better and possibly smaller/more private lessons etc etc) doesn't seem to have really occured to anyone. That being said, sometimes "needs must", and a job is better than none (or is needed in the short term to fund further study and development in the long term etc).
*Easy for the schools and maybe the teachers, that is! But maybe not the best way for students to learn much or efficiently (given the general low quality of most PPP - forget "chalk and talk", it's more like "baulk and caulk (bilking shamelessly all the while)").
**All the competitors sound more or less the same as one another, so the deciding factor is price - with low salaries compounding things for the literally poor, likely also pressured and p-ed off teachers.
Some words that I should've used in my above post are 'lecture' and 'translation' - nothing wrong with an informative, high quality lecture-style presentation (presentation phase), especially if it can be done at least partly in the students' (plural) first language.
One very good point that you've raised Meso is whether PPP is what learners want and find useful. My first thought is, what choice are they really given? As you say, PPP is such 'an easy* way to train teachers, sell lessons, prepare courses, make money, and manage institutions' that it would hardly be in the ELT industry's interests to even hint that there could be alternatives. PPP and Direct Method etc is sold as the best thing since Pop-Tarts (TM), and the prospective students literally have to buy it**, as do trainee teachers, then the same teachers working for profit-hungry bosses. The sad result is that many teachers don't rock the boat or simply can't be bothered, and therefore stop developing as much as they might (both personally, and in terms of materials and methods), to the detriment of their teaching and their students' learning; sadder still is that some of these people end up in positions of authority and perpetuate the somewhat vicious cycle. The thought that better methods (and the fact is that PPP can be bettered, with a little effort) could be just as if not more profitable (and perhaps attract a better "class" of student - more serious, hard-working, willing to pay more for better and possibly smaller/more private lessons etc etc) doesn't seem to have really occured to anyone. That being said, sometimes "needs must", and a job is better than none (or is needed in the short term to fund further study and development in the long term etc).
*Easy for the schools and maybe the teachers, that is! But maybe not the best way for students to learn much or efficiently (given the general low quality of most PPP - forget "chalk and talk", it's more like "baulk and caulk (bilking shamelessly all the while)").
**All the competitors sound more or less the same as one another, so the deciding factor is price - with low salaries compounding things for the literally poor, likely also pressured and p-ed off teachers.
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woodcutter
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fluffyhamster
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I was thinking more of too fully automated, robotic, lacking the human, a conveyor belt churning out low quality trash (i.e. stuff that could be much better, completely redesigned etc), "unionized" (i.e. full of card-carrying brainwashed evangelical/miltant nutters etc), as associations for 'factory'. I certainly don't see why we should argue for PPP just because you can conjure up some "positive" associations for the word, Woody! (But then, you are actually referring to method schools, which aren't really RSA/Cambridge PPP anyway, or if there is a resemblance, are PPP taken to an extreme, and that would seem to attract more criticism than praise, if previous discussions on here have been anything to go by. Not all teachers are stuck without ideas between the terrors of aimless conversation classes and the apparent safety and support of strict method-mongering, but I suppose we could have a discussion (again?) about whether such methods would be what the students in fact want or need (to return to that point of Meso's). Maybe there are some actually halfway-convincing SLA research findings which would support arguments either way that bit more conclusively? Or at least some old threads that could be profitably mined (note how I am exercising some restraint for once, regarding digging through and perhaps quoting from and/or linking to 'em. Or maybe I just can't be bothered to do even that anymore 
).
).
Last edited by fluffyhamster on Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don't think anyone was being disrespectful to anything or anyone WC, rather it strikes me they were merely discussing some general thoughts on education.woodcutter wrote:Factories get the required results in bulk, at speed. If that is true of a "factory" method then you need to respect it.
If it isn't true then I think there are better ways to criticize it.
PPP is an effective way of quickly getting lots people together all at the same time; students and teachers alike.
As a bonus it does work well with low abilities if administered properly.
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woodcutter
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Low abilities are 80% of the game. Big bonus.
I'm not saying anyone was especially "disrespectful" (and I am hardly full of respect for many ESL industry ideas myself), I just mean that this kind of "Ugh, it is like a horrid factory" attitude is self-defeating because it makes it seem as though the method is effective but unpleasant.
I'm not saying anyone was especially "disrespectful" (and I am hardly full of respect for many ESL industry ideas myself), I just mean that this kind of "Ugh, it is like a horrid factory" attitude is self-defeating because it makes it seem as though the method is effective but unpleasant.
Could I butt in on this post please and ask what the other posters DO like, if not always PPP? I have been teaching one to one for a year now - complete immersion courses for French teenagers and I have always used PPP as the basis for the lessons I have produced. I haven't used any text books but have produced my own lessons to appeal to the students interests and, of course, I have some french myself so that helps.
I know from the feedback, that the work I have done with the students is very well received, but I would like some more ideas of maybe different teaching plans etc to spark some inspiration to help me enlarge my little portfolio of lesson plans.
Thanks so much
I know from the feedback, that the work I have done with the students is very well received, but I would like some more ideas of maybe different teaching plans etc to spark some inspiration to help me enlarge my little portfolio of lesson plans.
Thanks so much
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fluffyhamster
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Hi Fran, and welcome to the forums!
When I say I don't like PPP, I am referring more to the complete RSA/Cambridge style of jolly hockey sticks patronizing teacher-led seals clapping for fish sort of thing, rather than to any general form of presentation, or practice, "then" production etc; that is, I still obviously often need and indeed want to "present" (introduce, somehow contextualize) language into my classrooms. The difference I feel between my classes and orthodox PPP however is that in mine I strive to use language naturally (as based on findings from Discourse and Conversation Analysis, and Corpus Linguistics), so as to maximize the quality and value of input/TTT, and thereby aid acquisition and better prepare students for the general shape and style of fully functional conversation in the real world.
If you like, you can find out more about my "approach", such as it is, by searching for 'Dogme' (not that I necessarily do "true" Dogme either, whatever that might be); then there's this: http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/viewt ... 0652#40652 . But I'll try to post more actual fresh discussion here, if you'd prefer (gotta dash for now, though).
When I say I don't like PPP, I am referring more to the complete RSA/Cambridge style of jolly hockey sticks patronizing teacher-led seals clapping for fish sort of thing, rather than to any general form of presentation, or practice, "then" production etc; that is, I still obviously often need and indeed want to "present" (introduce, somehow contextualize) language into my classrooms. The difference I feel between my classes and orthodox PPP however is that in mine I strive to use language naturally (as based on findings from Discourse and Conversation Analysis, and Corpus Linguistics), so as to maximize the quality and value of input/TTT, and thereby aid acquisition and better prepare students for the general shape and style of fully functional conversation in the real world.
If you like, you can find out more about my "approach", such as it is, by searching for 'Dogme' (not that I necessarily do "true" Dogme either, whatever that might be); then there's this: http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/viewt ... 0652#40652 . But I'll try to post more actual fresh discussion here, if you'd prefer (gotta dash for now, though).
Last edited by fluffyhamster on Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lol
as opposed to seals clapping for fish...
i prefer just plain old teaching
but what do i mean by that?
i mean just... plain old teaching...
ain't nothin' to it but to do it
(but not to just be a bit of a *beep* - maybe some explicit grammar theory on the board and then some written exercises based on the theory, then some listening, reading, speaking, with new grammar rule, then some homework with new rule, then move on to the next rule, ad infinitum, ad absurdum, not forgetting to do all the others things that teachers are supposed to do, [like gossip about everything and everybody in staffrooms, give people random death stares, and laugh at their own jokes])
as opposed to seals clapping for fish...
i prefer just plain old teaching
but what do i mean by that?
i mean just... plain old teaching...
ain't nothin' to it but to do it
(but not to just be a bit of a *beep* - maybe some explicit grammar theory on the board and then some written exercises based on the theory, then some listening, reading, speaking, with new grammar rule, then some homework with new rule, then move on to the next rule, ad infinitum, ad absurdum, not forgetting to do all the others things that teachers are supposed to do, [like gossip about everything and everybody in staffrooms, give people random death stares, and laugh at their own jokes])
Last edited by mesomorph on Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hahahahamesomorph wrote:lol
as opposed to seals clapping for fish...
i prefer just plain old teaching
but what do i mean by that?
i mean just... plain old teaching...
ain't nothin' to it but to do it
(but not to just be a bit of a *beep* - maybe some explicit grammar theory on the board and then some written exercises based on the theory, then some listening, reading, speaking, with new grammar rule, then some homework with new rule, then move on to the next rule, ad infinitum, ad absurdum, not forgetting to do all the others things that teachers are supposed to do, [like gossip about everything and everybody in staffrooms, give people random death stares, and laugh at their own jokes])
Well Fluffyhamster - thanks for that. Despite being flummoxed by a lot of the stuff you wrote in 'teflese' (I'm a simple soul) I clicked on to onestopenglish, read through the stuff about CLIL and am now totally inspired to produce an entire package of lessons!
The students who come to me come to ride my horses as well as learn English (and I think we know what it is THEY want and what their PARENTS want!). Their stable management skills aren't great Soooo... I think I have the beginnings of a set of lessons. Brilliant. Best get started.
Thanks a lot
Fran
The students who come to me come to ride my horses as well as learn English (and I think we know what it is THEY want and what their PARENTS want!). Their stable management skills aren't great Soooo... I think I have the beginnings of a set of lessons. Brilliant. Best get started.
Thanks a lot
Fran