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| Should we make an effort to write fairly accurately on Dave's? |
| Yes - it's a board for English language teachers, after all. |
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| C'mon - it's an internet forum. Stop nit-picking! |
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| Total Votes : 33 |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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 Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Dear istanbulian,
"But you are destroying the integrity of that view by going into threads, (sic) that you were not apart (sic) of or invited, (sic) and act (sic) like a draconian SS trooper and comment (sic) on people's use of grammar."
But that's exactly what you're doing on this one.
Regards,
John |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Accuracy in writing on Dave's |
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| istanbulian wrote: |
| spiral78 wrote: |
| My point of view: |
Unfortunately YOU are forcing your view upon everybody else! |
At least from the standpoint of this thread alone, this is an open discussion forum, and spiral merely posted a poll (which at this point is running 3 to 1 in favor of writing better, spiral's hope and one which you seem to agree on). |
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Tudor
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 339
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Istanbulian,
Why have all your other posts been emptied of content? I was hoping to find the salacious thread you alluded to involving Spiral, but, alas, all your posts seem to have bitten the dust...  |
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ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| One of the big problems today is that so many have lost the ability to discuss a subject without viewing it as an attack when the question is raised. |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| No, not hypocrisy. Irony, yes. If I might explain a little, some of the more standard abbreviations like the one I used are just fine. What drives me crazy is the stuff like "u" for "you" and "b4" for "before". Clear now? |
| Quote: |
| My excuse is a typo. Are you willing enough to accept that? People like spiral78 and I did say those were acceptable. |
And how are we to know which specific turns of phrase and errors are acceptable and which are going to elicit a passive-aggressive poll? Perhaps you two should put out a list so the rest of us know? I would sincerely appreciate an explanation of how "IMO" for "in my opinion" is any different from "U" for "you." One is more "standard" according to ... whom?
I voted for No. 2, by the way. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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I'm making no secret that I think Dave's is not just any internet forum and that I think there are some good reasons to make an effort to write with reasonable accuracy here. However, I'm obviously aware that my views are by no means more credible than anyone else's here.
That's why I've also specifically opened the discussion for elaboration on dissenting views. You're entirely welcome to offer logic and evidence to support the idea that it's not important to write accurately here. I don't think there's been much supporting logic for this side yet - tell us why it's not important on this board for English language teachers, if you feel this way!
So far as a standard for 'accuracy,' I think that here it would basically be that most posts don't show repeated patterns of errors, particularly those of the type that we'd need to correct in student work.
Just to remind everyone where this all started:
| Quote: |
This is a board for English language teachers and there are some good reasons to make an effort to write fairly accurately here at least most of the time (occasional typos forgiven, obviously!). I feel this way despite the fact that this is an internet message board, which I am aware is a medium that is commonly very forgiving of poor English usage.
First, it's a very important trait of a language teacher to be aware of his/her language usage. When working with students, even via email or online messaging, we are of course setting a standard. What comes across as 'natural' English from the mouth or keyboard of a native speaker can easily make a language learner appear foolish or cloud his/her accuracy, particularly when one works with learners who use their English with other non-native speakers. Why not practice language awareness here? Not many internet forums lend themselves to this; it's valuable that this one does, I think.
Second, some employers do read these boards. While most posters maintain at least some anonymity, most also drop enough details for an employer (or potential employer) to pick up on who he/she might be. I actually know of a couple of careless posters here whose real-life jobs/job prospects have been negatively affected by what was written here. That may be fairly rare, but it is certainly not unheard-of.
Third, we are language teachers here and it's tough for us to be nice and to overlook errors . We correct errors as a part of our jobs, after all - difficult to break the habit on a board that is for English teachers!!
Again, the occasional typo happens to us all, but repeated misspellings and misuse of language can make us question a teachers' professionalism (well, at least it does for me, I admit ).
Fourth, what we write here becomes a part of public record in a sense. It's out there for anyone from employers to students to fellow teachers to see. For me, reasonable accuracy here is a part of my professional profile. |
Last edited by spiral78 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Aristede
Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 180
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Zero wrote: |
Perhaps you two should put out a list so the rest of us know? I would sincerely appreciate an explanation of how "IMO" for "in my opinion" is any different from "U" for "you." One is more "standard" according to ... whom?
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A valid question. IMO is less objectionable because it saves ten keystrokes (counting spaces) and reads more as shorthand than "textspeak." Using "U" instead of "you" only saves two keystrokes, so it is lazy and obnoxious IMO.  The same is true of "Y" for "why" and "R" for "are." |
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golsa
Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 185
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Zero wrote: |
| different from "U" for "you." One is more "standard" according to ... whom? |
One is a Dutch word while the other is an English word. I'll leave it to you to decide which is which. |
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AGoodStory
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Oops--double post.
Last edited by AGoodStory on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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AGoodStory
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Teacher in Rome wrote: |
Isn't it also a matter of professionalism? Why wouldn't you want to write the best you could, on a forum for and populated by English teachers? OK, the odd typo, the odd clumsy sentence (and who isn't guilty of those) are one thing; but repeated spelling and grammar errors and "lazy" punctuation make you look anything but an English teacher. And I don't accept the "we're only conversation teachers so it doesn't count" argument.
Frankly, I don't care if you're writing on the internet or your Master's thesis / dissertation: act the professional to be considered the professional. |
Couldn't have said it better. The occasional error or awkward construction bothers me not at all. I rarely give typos a second glance. I take many misspellings to be typos, unless it becomes glaringly obvious to me that they are not. I'm happy enough reading posts using casual language.
But beyond this are the many cringe-worthy postings of those who aspire to teach a language which they don't seem to be able to use very well. Some show a lack of awareness, others a disdain for the language. And I fail to find the tedious rationalizations convincing. You were born in the internet age, so nobody can expect you to use the shift key?  You have so many things to post on so many websites that you can't take the time to punctuate or spell correctly? Your time is more valuable than that of all the members who do punctuate and capitalize and make sure that their posts are not littered with errors?
And probably worst, in my opinion: you want to teach the English language, but can't be bothered to learn it first? |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| If you want a further excuse, how about being damned tired these days (preparing and correcting final exams and entrance exams, proofreading, editing journals, attending conferences, etc.)? |
Those whom you would criticize, perhaps they are tired, too? Maybe they edit journals and prepare for their own conferences, or engage in comparably significant pursuits. |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You are so draconian in your ways |
Wow. Terribly sorry, but I've utterly forgotten where I flamed you for grammar. If you'll post the link or send a pm, I'll read what I wrote and if it's draconian, I'll apologise. I'm not actually known for being draconian (and I'm certainly not aspiring to be a mod!). I almost always overlook poor grammar and spelling (honestly, I could provide hundreds and hundreds of examples) but I do recall a few occasions when the problems were at a level where someone was bound to call attention to them. I am most certainly not the only one around here who's been called a 'grammar nazi' on one or two occasions over the years. 
Here is the thread which inspired this one. It's in istanbullian's territory, obviously, but I don't think I can be accused of flaming anyone here (well, I hope not - it most definitely wasn't my intention!):
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=93951 |
I read the thread that you referenced. Should the OP there omit all capitals? Well, you don't see me doing it. But so what? That is clearly a stylistic choice, with the OP making a selection based on his or her perception that a forum is an informal place. It is not a "mistake," and I doubt the OP writes like that when it counts. I respect the choice. It doesn't hurt me in any way.
What does offend me is other posters getting haughty about others' writing. Note that the very next poster addresses the OP this way: "As an EFL teacher you don't want to be sloppy it is a very bad role model for students." Do you see that blatant run-on sentence? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. In fact, I think the response is worse than the OP, as the former seems to be a stylistic choice, and the latter seems to be ignorance of grammar.
Are some of us criticizing the writing of others, while overlooking or justifying our own mistakes? I've seen a decent amount of it on this very thread. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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I agree completely with what Teacher in Rome and A Good Story posted.
This puts it very well, I think:
"The occasional error or awkward construction bothers me not at all. I rarely give typos a second glance. I take many misspellings to be typos, unless it becomes glaringly obvious to me that they are not. I'm happy enough reading posts using casual language.
But beyond this are the many cringe-worthy postings of those who aspire to teach a language which they don't seem to be able to use very well. Some show a lack of awareness, others a disdain for the language. And I fail to find the tedious rationalizations convincing. You were born in the internet age, so nobody can expect you to use the shift key? You have so many things to post on so many websites that you can't take the time to punctuate or spell correctly? Your time is more valuable than that of all the members who do punctuate and capitalize and make sure that their posts are not littered with errors?"
It's not the nits that bother me - so I don't pick them. But oh, the lice  .
Regards,
John |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| read the thread that you referenced. Should the OP there omit all capitals? Well, you don't see me doing it. But so what? That is clearly a stylistic choice, with the OP making a selection based on his or her perception that a forum is an informal place. It is not a "mistake," and I doubt the OP writes like that when it counts. I respect the choice. It doesn't hurt me in any way. |
I see your point, Zero, but do keep in mind that I didn't respond to the errors in any post there. I responded to this:
| Quote: |
| ps- i realise this is a esl forum, but when you grew up as part of the first generation of internetters its hard to be conscious of spelling and the like on one of 1000 message boards you`ve come across/been apart of : ) |
....by suggesting that I could offer some good reasons to make an effort. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Zero wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If you want a further excuse, how about being damned tired these days (preparing and correcting final exams and entrance exams, proofreading, editing journals, attending conferences, etc.)? |
Those whom you would criticize, perhaps they are tired, too? Maybe they edit journals and prepare for their own conferences, or engage in comparably significant pursuits. |
Look, you seem hell-bent on attacking me here. The simple facts are these:
I agree with spiral. Constant and flagrant errors in English being typed in messages by teachers or prospective teachers on a forum devoted to teaching English should be considered unacceptable. Most people who have voted so far agree. You don't.
As for creating any standards for abbreviations or anything else, that is not the realm of power for spiral or me here. People either agree to try harder or not. In fact, I don't think the forum needs to post any such standard; the people who post here simply need to know that their poor typing is not acceptable and that they should be prepared for a little flak, or at least for being considered (ironically) poor at a field that they are pursuing to teach.
As for your quoted remark above, look back at my posts in other threads, and you'll see that for the most part, I don't make that many mistakes. You seem to want to pick up on a stray one or its reason instead of focusing on the point here. The occasional typo is something that happens to everyone and should be ignored.
Please see where the thread is intended instead of pursuing a personal agenda (which is what it appears). |
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