Job Discussion Forums

[johnslat]

So, there I was (this morning) teaching "transition words", which, in my handout, I have grouped by meaning. One of the categories is "Contrast", and both "nevertheless" and "however" are in that category.

I get a question: "What's the difference between "nevertheless" and "however?"

Well, I'm tempted to say, "There's not much difference", but I'm not really sure that's true. To be honest, I'd never thought about that before. So, I temporized, saying, "I don't believe there's too much difference, but let me think about it, and I'll get back to you on that in the next class."

So, I went home and thought about it - and this is what I came up with:

_____________________________________________________________

"However" indicates a simpler, more general, level of contradictoriness. Men do this; however, women do that.

"Nevertheless" indicates a more complex, more specific, relationship.

"In spite of the fact that studies indicate smoking is bad for one's health, people continue to smoke�

This could also be written as

�Studies indicate smoking is bad for one's health; nevertheless, people continue to smoke�

It�s that "in spite of one thing, the other happens" that calls for the use of "nevertheless."

1. However is used to indicate negation, contrast, or contradiction both when there is when there is a direct and no direct correlation or causal relationship between two conditions.

However is the more �general� word.

2. Nevertheless is used to indicate negation, contrast, or contradiction only when a direct correlation or causal relationship exists between two conditions.

For example, there is no direct correlation or causal relationship between the fact that fewer men smoke and the fact that the number of women smokers is rising.

However, a direct correlation exists between the fact that smoking is bad for people, but people continue to smoke anyway.

So you would write this:

1a. Fewer men smoke nowadays; however, the number of female smokers is rising.

but not this

1b. Fewer men smoke nowadays; nevertheless, the number of female smokers is rising.

And you could write this:

2a. Smoking is bad for people; nevertheless, people continue to smoke anyway.

or this

2b. Smoking is bad for people; however, people continue to smoke anyway

_____________________________________________________________

However, I'm not so sure my explanation is either complete or completely right. So, I'd appreciate any comments.

Regards,
John

[johntpartee]

[johnslat]

Dear johntpartee,

Ah, as usual, your insight and clarity have resolved all my difficulties.

Regards,
John

[johntpartee]

Well, what it comes down to is the sound of things. That's probably the hardest things for students to grasp because WE JUST DON'T KNOW why things are the way they are regarding our bizarre, convoluted mother tongue.

[johntpartee]

But I'm glad I could help.

[spiral78]

Dear Both:

I think it may be a matter of register rather than 'sound.'
but, however, nevertheless would likely be listed this way in terms of ascending formality.

Ya think?

Best regards,
spiral

[johntpartee]

[spiral78]

Now I'm dizzy. Shall we use sign language to indicate what we mean, johnt?

but<however<nevertheless
nevertheless>however>but

usually....

I think the very rough and approximate 'rule' that applies here is 'the shorter/simpler the word, the less formal its register. But I think it's only a 'rule' that works for those of us who are not really too hung up on 'rules,' and who enjoy the many, many exceptions to every one of the 'rules.'

Comfort with some degree of ambiguity - handy for expats and language learners!

[johntpartee]

But......nevermind.

No, wait a minute.

What do you call the anomalies of English? Job security!

[spiral78]

Nyaah, some of us have job security. Actually.
Maybe not enough of us, but in what field does everyone have it?

For any worker with just a 30-day cert plus the ubiquitous BA, it'd be pretty difficult to find job security in any other kind of job either, unless one is happy and fulfilled flipping burgers or doing other types of work that allow a tremendous amount of freedom to think of other things while at work (not necessarily a bad state to be in).

[Jbhughes]

It would seem that according to COCA (corpus.byu.edu/coca/), 'nevertheless' and 'however' don't seem to be particularly different in register, at least by comparing their usage in spoken and academic contexts:

nevertheless
total occurences: 13981
spoken: 1099 8%
academic: 6900 49%

however
total occurences: 151930
spoken: 9004 6%
academic: 77588 51%

(Percentages are % of total occurences for that word)

For comparison:

but
total cccurences: 1971036
spoken: 508210 26%
academic: 229788 12%

Would the fact that 'however' is used more often (occuring over 10times more often than 'nevertheless') reflect that it is the more general word, or somehow be more reflective of the texts that COCA is derived from?

As a little side note, if one looks at the historical usage statistics, you can see that the usags of both 'nevertheless' and 'however' are decreasing, whereas 'but' continues to stay at a similar level. Further weight to language becoming less formal as time goes on?

Perhaps someone with access to that Cambridge corpus or something similar could provide some more conclusive information from BrE usage?

[Sashadroogie]

'Nevertheless' usually includes some sort of concessionary idea, whereas 'however' doesn't, being more for contrast only.

"Sasha, two female students have filed complaints against you this month. Nevertheless, we need you to stay on because no one else understands these damned IELTS graphs."

"Sasha loves vodka. His wife, however, does not."

[johntpartee]

You've left yourself wide open for a snappy comeback; however, I'm unable to come up with anything. Nevertheless, I'm sure johnslat or spiral can.

[Sashadroogie]

However big you think you are, I'm open to all challengers! Nevertheless, few offer any sort of snappy comeback at all. Hic!

[johntpartee]

Nevertheless, however, that's just too good to let it slide without SOMETHING. But ya never know.