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ESF Compared to NET Scheme
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Joshua2006



Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 342

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The salary scale of GM is from around HK$22,240 to HK$51,670 (approx. US$2,851* to 6,624*) per month (12 months a year). Candidates with a PGDE or equivalent (not TEFL/TESL qualifications) will enter at HK$24,540 (approx. US$3,146*) per month. Those without a local PGDE or equivalent will not be permitted to proceed beyond a salary bar which is at present set at HK$28,380 (approx. US$3,638*) per month.


Quote:
Passage, baggage, medical allowances and a special allowance of HK$16,859 (approx. US$2,161*) per month are provided for appointees whose normal place of residence is established as outside Hong Kong.


That's for SNETs.

And PNETs?

Quote:
The salary scale of APSM is from around HK$22,240 to HK$43,010 (approx. US$2,851* to 5,514*) per month (12 months a year). Candidates with a Post-graduate Diploma in Education (PGDE) or equivalent (not TEFL/TESL qualifications) will enter at HK$24,540 (approx. US$3,146*) per month. Those without a local recognised teacher training qualification or equivalent will not be permitted to proceed beyond a salary bar which is at present set at HK$28,380 (approx. US$3,638*) per month.


Quote:
Passage, baggage, medical allowances and a special allowance of HK$16,859 (approx. US$2,161*) per month are provided for appointees whose normal place of residence is established as outside Hong Kong.


So, I am happy to say that as a NET, I will be eligible, at the current rate, to $68,529 which has got to put you right up there with the upper ESF tecahers. And, if like several NETs I know, you manage to land yourself in a good school, then that 68k is very stressfree and, essentially, easy money, whereas working for ESF I would imagine is never going to be a walk in the park, mainly due to it being a business being paid for by rich expat families. My friend's wife teaches Mandarin in one of the international schools and gets paid quite well for doing it, but has an inordinate amount of stress from parents who expect their children to be fluent after 2 1/2 hour classes...luckily the school stands behind the teachers on every occasion, but it is still something you don't really want.

It depends what you want. Do you want the responsibility of furthering a large amount of children and only having to do English related stuff and with no chance of promotion yet get paid well, or do you want to have the chance of promotion, a considerable amount of stress (I am presuming) dealing with school and parent politics and, at the end of the day, make the same amount of difference to those that you are teaching?

Call me lazy, but I am politically inept within any organisation and I know that ESF would be a very bad place for me, personally, to work. However, even though I have my complaints, the NET scheme is a much better option...all round. Slightly solitary, but for what we get paid, I will live with that.
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Smoog



Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 137
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perilla wrote:
Smoog wrote:
Thus, if his mate is top of the scale as a PNET, then he would've been top at ESF - and earning more.


Not necessarily. If his mate was a relatively inexperienced teacher at ESF but has worked his way up as a PNET he would naturally be making more at the latter.

I assumed mystic was making a comparison between recent employments as anything else would be asinine and pointless. It's apples and oranges territory.
Using your logic I could argue that ESF pays four times as much as a PNET, as I was on just $16k /month - the bottom paystep back then and no allowance - when I first started for the first 3 months until the school secretary finally bothered to send all the paperwork into the EDB for them to work out my proper paystep and okay the SA. But I won't cause it's a pointless exercise that adds nothing to the thread & is thoroughly unenlightening.

Having re-read mystic's comments, I note s/he said their mate was on $30k at an International school which he only presumed to be an ESF school. As the lowest pay is $39k, it wasn't ESF. Most likely the Korean or the American Int school. From memory AIS (and I think also KIS) salary starts at $25k and goes up $1k per year of teaching experience, to a maximum of $35k.

With regards to Joshua's comment: "make the same amount of difference (NET vs ESF) to those that you are teaching"
umm..no you won't. It's likely that you won't make the slightest bit of difference on students' English if you're a NET, especially if you're in a Band 3 school. Most of the students will have little, if any, English yet there will be no attempt to alter the curriculum to take this into account. You will be expected to teach material that is far above their ability, and with the extreme emphasis on exams, you will not have time to spend on each topic to ensure comprehension and understanding. Your teaching life will pretty much be, "Okay, end of that topic! Anyone get it? no? Too bad, onto the next topic."

Also, regards your comment that only ESF parents would be pushy: again not so! You may find local parents just as grumpy. They expect - demand - the textbook be taught in full, and will complain bitterly if you attempt to alter, simplify or leave parts out. Local thinking is that the teacher is there to teach the textbook, nothing else.


That all said if you, as you say, are lazy then the NET scheme is a better option. Especially if you would be top of the payscale. NET scheme, being government-run, doesn't give a damn about the amount of money spent; unlike private-run schools like ESF. You may in fact find it difficult to get hired at ESF due to your experience. If they thought they could hire someone at $20k less /month to fill the same position, it's highly probable they would. A ridiculous situation but that's the reality of schools being businesses.
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Joshua2006



Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 342

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smoog wrote:


With regards to Joshua's comment: "make the same amount of difference (NET vs ESF) to those that you are teaching"
umm..no you won't. It's likely that you won't make the slightest bit of difference on students' English if you're a NET, especially if you're in a Band 3 school. Most of the students will have little, if any, English yet there will be no attempt to alter the curriculum to take this into account. You will be expected to teach material that is far above their ability, and with the extreme emphasis on exams, you will not have time to spend on each topic to ensure comprehension and understanding. Your teaching life will pretty much be, "Okay, end of that topic! Anyone get it? no? Too bad, onto the next topic."

Also, regards your comment that only ESF parents would be pushy: again not so! You may find local parents just as grumpy. They expect - demand - the textbook be taught in full, and will complain bitterly if you attempt to alter, simplify or leave parts out. Local thinking is that the teacher is there to teach the textbook, nothing else.


That all said if you, as you say, are lazy then the NET scheme is a better option. Especially if you would be top of the payscale. NET scheme, being government-run, doesn't give a damn about the amount of money spent; unlike private-run schools like ESF. You may in fact find it difficult to get hired at ESF due to your experience. If they thought they could hire someone at $20k less /month to fill the same position, it's highly probable they would. A ridiculous situation but that's the reality of schools being businesses.

Lazy may not have been the best choice of word on my part...I leave home at 6.10 every morning and don't usually get home until about 6.45 and there is only an hour of travel each way in that time frame. There is certainly a lot of work to be done and a lot of extra stuff that appears through the year which adds to the workload - speech competitions, sports days, singing competitions, parents days, English 'camps' and then all the deskwork too......what I meant is that if you are happy with that, without the added stress of managerial responsibility and the fact that you are working for a business rather than something the government is paying for, the the NET scheme is a good place to be. All the SNETs I know are insanely busy in one way or another but all seem to be happy.

And the Band 3 thing? I am in one and I know that I am making a difference with some of my students and I know that already, in the relatively short time I have been here, I have helped a lot with their speaking especially, so even though we are band three, there are still students that want to learn. Yes the material is high for many. No, I don't have to teach all the material. yes, I can don what I want from the material that I think they will be able to manage. No, there are no expectations on my students apart from, and I quote, "some improvement". This though I know is school dependent and it really is up to the school as to what they want from you and also from the students.

I have worked in high level Korean high schools and also a lower level Korean high school. I have worked in an international school and have now also worked as a NET. The international school, BY FAR, was easily the most stressful job because of the students and the lack of control that they had, simply because they were paying for their education - something one of them did remind me when I was balling him out over something and he turned round and said, "I pay your wages." A moment I won't forget...

I can see, that if you find yourself in a good school with the NET scheme, then it is going to be a good place to be, both financially and also from the actual job aspect too, and is a place that I know I would rather be...
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rayman



Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 427

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are the salary figures quoted here in HK$/month or in $US/year?

As an experienced international school teacher with a family, it may also be worth noting that if you have children or plan to in the near future, ESF would win hands down over the NET scheme. The free schooling Vs no schooling adds between US$12000-30000/year + the obvious conveniences that working at the same school as your children brings.
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Joshua2006



Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 342

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would we be talking US? You think you are going to be paid $65,000 US a month?
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Perilla



Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 792
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smoog wrote:
I assumed mystic was making a comparison between recent employments as anything else would be asinine and pointless.

With regards to Joshua's comment: "make the same amount of difference (NET vs ESF) to those that you are teaching"
umm..no you won't. It's likely that you won't make the slightest bit of difference on students' English if you're a NET, especially if you're in a Band 3 school.


You assume much, and much of it is inaccurate as Joshua has pointed out. Of course there are bad NET schools, but there are also good ones where working can be enjoyable and the kids pleasant. My wife's school is another such example.

Doubtless there are many nice ESF kids - but many are also arrogant, pushy, spoilt brats. I know who (and where) I'd rather teach. As for the difference in pay, here I will agree with your apples and oranges analogy - both systems are very well paid.
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rayman



Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 427

PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rayman said:
Quote:
Are the salary figures quoted here in HK$/month or in $US/year?


Joshua2006 said:
Quote:
Why would we be talking US? You think you are going to be paid $65,000 US a month?


Joshua2006 - I've highlighted my post for you to read again. Try reading it slowly this time. I noticed you take issue to people that ask common questions and don't use the search function. How do you feel about those that misread questions and make arrogant and wayward replies?

Cheers
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Joshua2006



Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 342

PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rayman wrote:
Rayman said:
Quote:
Are the salary figures quoted here in HK$/month or in $US/year?


Joshua2006 said:
Quote:
Why would we be talking US? You think you are going to be paid $65,000 US a month?


Joshua2006 - I've highlighted my post for you to read again. Try reading it slowly this time. I noticed you take issue to people that ask common questions and don't use the search function. How do you feel about those that misread questions and make arrogant and wayward replies?

Cheers

Well, having gone back and seen the error of my ways, I notice that on more than one occasion that people make arrogant assumptions thinking that a Hong Kong board, with a Hong Kong school discussion, in a very eclectic group of nationalities, would why do people still think that any mention of money would be in American dollars, rather than the dollar of the country that is being discussed? Especially when there are numerous other posts on this thread which talk about $16k a month, or $20k a month or $68k a month. Neither was there any mention of an annual salary amount, nor the fact that it might be even remotely relevant to US dollars, apart from those bracketed amounts, which would imply that they are not the main focus for the stated currency, just more of an explanatory thing to those who don't know the conversion rate for the US dollar against the HKD dollar.

So, whilst maybe I 'misread' the question, but then you sir, did not read the whole thread properly as, if you had, you would have known that at no point was any figure mentioned going to be in US dollars.

And yes.....it does annoy me that people don't use the search function. Whilst I understand people want to know certain information about coming here to Hong Kong, it surely can't be that difficult to a) use the search function, b) read about two pages of threads on here and c) work out, having read those threads, that people aren't just going to walk into a NET job or an ESF school with a diploma in arse scratching and a thought about doing a TESOL related qualification....

I did the groundwork, I got the experience, I got the qualifications and I sent my CV out to god knows how many schools and the NET scheme too. There must be something about my arrogant and wayward approach that they liked......

Cheers


Last edited by Joshua2006 on Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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rayman



Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 427

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firstly, well done for sending your CV to lots of schools. Very noteworthy.

Having taught in a number of international schools in a range of countries, those in similar situations can confirm the vast majority of international schools continue to both charge student tuition AND pay staff salaries in US dollars. Despite massive debt and a corrosive government, the US dollar still remains the international currency of choice. The fact that ESF do not pay in US dollars places them in a minority amongst international schools, both within Asia and globally. When you gain broader international school teaching experience you will see what I mean. Alternatively, sign up with Search Associates and check their database at the click of the mouse.

Also, as you age some of us mellow a little. The more you the learn, the more you realise how little you know. Smile

Cheers
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Perilla



Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 792
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that many people coming to the forum could be forgiven for thinking (certainly initially) that the dollars being discussed are US dollars - or for expecting that international schools in HK pay in US$.

Joshua you do get a bit ratty with people too easily, IMO, for not using the search function. Some people (myself included) are not very computer savvy, and wouldn't know a search function from a fridge. But yes, some of the more common enquiries, which can even still be seen lower down the page, can be irritating.
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RiverMystic



Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 1986

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I find the search function on Dave's to be rather clunky. Whether you use it depends on what you are looking for. If you are looking for opinions on a special topic or specific situation, the search function may be rather useless.

Of course those of us who already know everything have no need for such devices.
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Joshua2006



Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 342

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This topic is raised so often, even those with no 'computing skill' only need to look down the first three or four pages of the forum and the answer is probably there...and that doesn't need any 'search' at all.
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sistercream



Joined: 18 Dec 2010
Posts: 497
Location: Pearl River Delta

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RiverMystic wrote:
Personally, I find the search function on Dave's to be rather clunky. Whether you use it depends on what you are looking for. If you are looking for opinions on a special topic or specific situation, the search function may be rather useless.

Of course those of us who already know everything have no need for such devices.


I think the sun might rise in the west tomorrow - I actually find myself agreeing with RM Shocked
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