Job Discussion Forums

[Riding One]

[deadlift]

Perseverance is key, too. We all know how important timing is to securing those good jobs. If you get knocked back or don't get an interview, revise your CV/ cover letter and try again in a month or two (which should be enough time for a new term/semester/cycle to be due). If there's a hole in your CV, get to work filling it. For example, if RMIT won't hire you because you've only taught kids, make it your mission to secure some adult classes. And don't complain if they won't hire you because you don't have your paperwork in order.

An acquaintance of mine is always moaning about her work, but when asked "why don't you apply to a better school?", her reply is that she applied at RMIT when she arrived here a year ago and never got a reply. She has not applied again since then, which is lunacy.

Another friend, on the other hand, was hired on his fourth application which just happened to arrive on the same day that someone left due to bereavement.

[Mattingly]

[Jbhughes]

I think the issue of consumer ignorance cannot be overlooked. Caring or not about their children doesn't necessarily come into it. It appears to me that the general public are simply not equipped to make decent decisions regarding where to study, especially when it comes choosing a school for the little 'un(s).

The VN marketing machine plasters up the white face and various initials over everything. Then there are the nice neat uniforms and logos, even public events and summer classes etc. How are any of these things related to how good an education students receive and what is left for the discerning parent / customer to... discern between?

I suppose one may answer by the progress that students/pupils make. I'm hardly a pedagogue when it comes to teaching children, but even I am aware that language development during the pre-teen years is a complicated and far from immediate beast. I envisage parents asking their kids what they have learnt today, children staring blankly upwards and the parents assuming the worst - this could be a completely fair assumption or quite the opposite.

I think that it's reasonably well agreed on these boards that the VNese education is pretty archaic - any other left-handed teachers out there are probably also used to shock and confusion - and as such the VNs awareness and understanding of any vaguely up-to-date methodology is of course likely to pretty non-existent.

The current situation just doesn't seem to be working. Andy123 made a good post recently regarding this, something related to IELTS. People here just seem to throw their dong at English learning and expect. I'm not entirely sure what the answer is, markinsaigon suggested following the Malaysian model of training teachers using expert outside help - maybe this could be the answer.

In the meantime, dong will be spent, business owners will make money, expats will come and go and maybe a few lucky ones will get that IELTs score they were looking for, even fewer of which might get to study abroad.



Before clicking 'submit', I'd just like to be clear that I'm not disparaging the VN consumer... merely stating what I perceive as the difficulties they face.

[1st Sgt Welsh]

Interesting post Jbhughes.

I get your point about the "VN marketing machine", but I don't think advertising here is anymore relentless than anywhere else I've been to. I acknowledge that you are "not disparaging the Vietnamese consumer" but, as far as I can see, they are in the same boat as everyone else.

I'm not claiming that you ever argued this Jbhughes, but I personally haven't seen any evidence that the Vietnamese are in any way less capable of making informed consumer choices than other races. That's not the same as saying the Vietnamese never make unwise decisions, or waste their money on stupid stuff, but that just seems to be normal human behavior. Geez, 'Baywatch' was the most widely watched show on the planet for years and, for me, that pretty much says it all .

Are people all over the world, including Vietnam, at this very second making poor decisions on where to spend their hard-earned dollars on education? You betcha! But the same could be said when it comes to buying clothes, transportation, food, etc. No matter what the product, informed, educated consumers will invariably make good buying decisions. Those who are neither informed or educated usually won't and that's just the way things are. Maybe it's insensitive to say but, in the words of Gordon Gekko, "a fool and his money are lucky enough to get together in the first place" .

[just noel]

[naturegirl321]

[snollygoster]

"markinsaigon suggested following the Malaysian model of training teachers using expert outside help "

I have had experience in this on both sides of the fence, and agree that a specialist "team" could have a very positive effect on Viet teaching standards-especially in the State run schools.

The resources that re available to ESL teachers in Viet schools are quite good and view English from a Vietnamese perspetive, rather than trying to fit the students into the mould of following a foreign text. (What is your favourite food? Hamburger! Have you ever eaten one? No-Then how can you say its your favourite-Because my text book says so".)

The problem is NOT with the resources, its with the training of the teachers
who are mostly still trained in an archaic way, and have not been equipped with the skills they need to effectively teach ESL.

Some private schools teachers and a few selected state school teachers DO actually get the chance to attend short training session such as TESOL, but unfortunately its too little too late in most cases, and whilst these types of copurses "open the teachers eyes" as to what they COULD be achieving, a more strategically directed follow up series of courses would be of immense benefit to teachers, students, and the Education system in general.

Probably the major hurdle to implement such a scheme as has been working in Malaysia would, in Vietnam, be the "under table incentives" that would need to be employed may make such a scheme nothing more than a pipe dream.

[Andy123]

mark-in-saigon your post was excellent and balanced. Other posts above were very good as well. Everyone has differing views.

But come on, don't tell me that "most" schools care about the qualifications of their teachers or their ability to deliver planned and effective lessons.

I personally have known people who were cooks, bartenders, security guards, laborers, high school drops outs with no university education who have taught TOEFL ibt and IELTS at large brand name schools. These people would not know the difference between a thesis statement and a topic sentence let alone what a split infinitive is.

Do these same schools employ well qualified and good educators? Yes. My point was that throwing unqualified people into the classrooms is occurring more frequently and it is common knowledge by the school administration. If this is true than you must seriously question their commitment to quality education and the services they are selling.

I stand by what I said, the bottom lines are profit and keeping the customers happy. They are not students. They are customers. I know it is sad but that is the reality. I truly wish it was not true as these poor students have great dreams and potential. Unfortunately, they are paying much money and spending valuable time in a most likely fruitless effort due to unscrupulous individuals.

[sigmoid]

Schools in VN could have some of the best teachers in the world, but most have been driven away by mismanagement and maltreatment on the part of the schools and bureaucratic runaround on the part of the gov't.

Without prioritizing teachers, both local and foreign, your business model/education policy will fail.

[Riding One]

[inhanoi]

Just to offer a bit of balance for new ESL/Vietnam people reading this thread: Nearly all of the teachers at my school have one year visas, paid for by the school. So options do exist. Maybe these options wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, but there are options.