Job Discussion Forums

[riyadh1974]

This is related to use of the 3rd Conditional.

'If I had know, I would have told him'

Is the following correct US grammar? :

'If I would have know, I would have told him'

Using would have twice sounds strange!

I would appreciate feedback from any US colleague.

[Christian St.Bacon]

KNOWN KNOWN KNOWN....any verb following have/has/had must be in the past participle/3rd verb.........thought even the Americans would have KNOWN that

Huhdoowot

If I had Known (but I didn't) I would have told him - '3rd conditional'

[riyadh1974]

oooops ... spelling mistake!!!

No intention of making fun of Americans here, was an honest question... I need to check what I'm writing!

[johnslat]

Dear riyadh1974,

"Which of the following grammar mistakes annoys you the most?

1. Third conditional

"If I would have known about the party, I would have gone to it."

This is INCORRECT, although commonly used, especially in American English.

The correct form is: If + had + past participle, would + have + past participle

* "If I had known about the party, I would have gone."

This is CORRECT."

http://www3.telus.net/linguisticsissues/commonerrorsinenglish.html

In 1986, I couldn�t escape the song �If She Would Have Been Faithful� by Chicago. I hated it for three reasons. First, it was such a whiny, wimpy-sounding song. Of course, a lot of Chicago�s songs are like that, but second, I didn�t like the theme of this song: �I�m glad my old SO was unfaithful to me, because otherwise, I�d still be with her, and wouldn�t have met you.� I�ll admit, with so many hundreds of songs about love out there, unless you�re going to go farther afield and write about peanut butter, Adidas, or rocks to wind a piece of string around, it�s going to be difficult to find new things to say. Even so, the main thing I take away from this song is that the lyricists were trying too hard. And the third thing, the thing that topped it all off, was the nonstandard grammar in If she would have been faithful.

�If She Would Have Been Faithful� came out just a couple of years after I�d learned about English moods and tenses, and I still thought �Why do they do that?� every time I heard someone say �If I/you/we/etc. would have� when they meant �If I/you/we/etc. had�. The standard way of phrasing the thought in this song title is to use the past perfect tense for be: �If she had been faithful.� That line doesn�t scan the same as If she would have been faithful, but I�m sure that the songwriters could have made it work with skillful use of contractions, adverbs, and song-phrasing; maybe If she�d only been faithful. (For other examples of counterfactuals, there�s If it hadn�t been for these kids or If only we had swum�.)

However, over the years I�ve wondered exactly why If I would have should be nonstandard. Sure, If I had is a shorter alternative that still sounds natural, but why should that alone be enough to deny If I would have? Furthermore, you can even make a couple of positive arguments in its favor.

Here�s one. We agree (don�t we?) that you express past-time counterfactuals with a past-perfect tense (i.e. the form with had plus past participle, e.g. had been). Furthermore, the past perfect tense of the modal verb would is would have. Therefore, if you can make a conditional referring to the present time such as If you would listen to me, we�d get along better, then you should also be able to make one referring to the past time, by putting the woulds into the past perfect: If you would have listened to me, we�d have gotten along better.

The second argument is based on analogy: You can use could have in if-clauses; for example, If I could have helped them, I would have. So why can�t you do the same thing with would have?

These arguments are valid, and at various times during the history of English, ordinary past perfects and would have past perfects have both been in past-time counterfactual conditionals � in both the if-clause and the main clause! Right now, it happens that the ordinary past perfect has the if-clause in the standard language, and that�s why would have is unappreciated there. But in 100 years, the tables could have turned once again. Instead of If you had listened to me, we would have gotten along better, it might be If you would have listened to me, we had gotten along better. For more on the historical development of the past perfect tense in conditionals, as well as more information on the arguments in favor of �would have,� and an overview of what grammar books and linguists have had to say on this topic, I recommend this 2003 paper by Noriko Ishihara.

("I Wish I Would Have Known!" The Usages of Would Have in Past Counterfactual If- and Wish-Clauses

Noriko Ishihara
University of Minnesota

Although grammar has long established its position in ESL curricula, discrepancies between forms used in actual speech and their prescribed counterparts are problematic. ESL textbooks sometimes fail to reflect authentic grammar use, thus raising questions as to how nonstandard usages should be treated in the classroom. This paper describes native English speakers� usage of would have in past counterfactual if- and wish-clauses in spoken discourse and examines acceptability judgments of this usage in an informal written dialogue. In this study the would have variant was widely used and accepted by the participants. The paper argues that ESL pedagogical materials should descriptively address the would have usage, which is potentially unconscious even among ESL instructors. The paper further explores plausible hypotheses accounting for the prevalent and stable usage of would have in violation of prescriptive rules. Practical suggestions are also presented regarding testing policies involving the would have usage on standardized tests.)

http://escholarship.org/uc/item/5wd0w3sz

Despite the validity of the above arguments, though, they still may not be enough to bestow legitimacy on most uses of would have in an if-clause. Consider the difference between If you would listen to me, we�d get along better, and If you listened to me, we�d get along better. For some speakers, these sentences mean the same thing, but for others, the version with would listen carries an idea of willingness�a vestige of the oldest meaning of will/would: to want or be willing to. If the meaning difference is too subtle with the verb listen, try it with the verb die. If you died tomorrow, who would take care of your family? is a grim but grammatically ordinary question. In contrast, If you would die tomorrow, who would take care of your family? sounds like something said by a non-native speaker.

Following this reasoning, the clause if you would have listened to me shouldn�t mean completely the same thing as if you had listened to me, but something more like if you had been willing to listen to me. For that reason, many of the people who argue against if you would have (Glen, I�m looking at you) do it on the grounds that it should be reserved to mean if you had been willing to, and using it to mean just if you had erases a meaningful distinction.

To which the opposition might reply, �How meaningful a distinction?� Regarding our example, if someone is willing to listen, presumably they do listen, so really, how much practical difference is there between if you had been willing to listen and if you had actually gone ahead and listened? In her paper, Ishihara doubts such a meaning actually exists, writing, �Some grammarians seem to believe in the rare �legitimate� usage of �would have� in subordinate clauses.�

Finally, even if this �if you had been willing� meaning exists, it will most likely not occur to your audience. Even if you write �if you would have listened to me� and really do mean �if you had been willing to listen to me,� your audience will almost certainly interpret it with the same meaning as they would �if you had listened to me�. In that situation, you�d communicate your meaning better by just writing, �if you had been willing to listen to me�.

http://literalminded.wordpress.com/2010/10/04/is-if-i-would-havei-ever-standard-grammar/


Now, aren't you sorry you asked? If you wouldn't have asked, you wouldn't have had to read all of the above.

Regards,
John

[CamTam]

Dear John,

As usual, you're the best!

[zooey]

Well, Johnslat, that sure was a mouthful.
If I hadn't (why not: had not??) been so busy I would have enjoyed reading it more.
If you hadn't made a mountain out of a molehill I would have got more surfing done.
If I hadn't clocked in to Dave's cafe today, I wouldn't have had half so much fun.
Are you still teaching grammar to grammarians? I would have thought you would have been happy to have given up all that brainfag now.

BTW, I'd love somebody (not me!) to do some research into WHY Saudis use would to express pure future intention:
There would be a quiz next Saturday
Ms X would be taking questions after the lecture

best
Zooey
ooh sorry, I just realised I'm irrelevant; not a US colleague

[johnslat]

Dear zooey,

You said (or rather, wrote) a mouthful. Grammar's just one of the things I'm teaching in my Transition classes (for ESL students who've gone though all the other ESL levels - Literacy through ESL 7) here at the local community college. Mainly though, it's reading, writing, and listening - with a dash of speaking (classroom presentations) since the students are mostly those who want to take college credit courses.

It's only 15 classroom hours a week, but give it up - never. I'm having far too much fun.

Regards,
John

[zooey]

sounds like a nice job - any vacancies? I'm already at home in the area - I have a Santa Fe car.

PS the hot weather hit us for the first time today; if we hadn't forgotten last summer, it wouldn't have been such a shock.

[Badar Bin Bada Boom]

Many also don't bother with present perfect at all: "Did you see that movie yet?" "No, I didn't. Let's go see it."

What gets me lately is that universal habit of confusing the spelling of "loser" with "looser." and of course lose/loose as in "I'd hate to loose her. I love her!"

Loose girl, indeed.

And why tf is it so difficult to spell a little word like that?