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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Dear sharter,
I agree - BUT although they lack discipline, discipline can be imposed. Maybe it's because I never taught military students, but in all my years there, I had zero discipline problems.
Now study skills - well, that's another matter. I mean, you can't go home with them - which, actually, is fortunate in many respects. 
Regards,
John |
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Grendal
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 861
Location: Lurking in the depths of the Faisaliah Tower underground parking.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:27 pm Post subject: Re: yep me too -till I asked 'em |
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| cmp45 wrote: |
| sharter wrote: |
I was chatting about this to some Arabs the other day and they said that it's a word they use when they're pleading/begging for something. Saying please is a kind of loss of face.....if I understood them correctly.
I agree with you tho'. Arabs are very polite in public and the more you learn about their culture, the more you know it if that makes any sense.
I think a lot of teachers can't make the adjustment to their culture. Arabs are excitable, they do chatter and they do often lack discipline. It's just the way they are. They also lack study skills and it's not really their fault as it starts early doors in school. I like them. |
Yes, they certainly are a chatty bunch, well at least when they have a western teacher or 'expat" teacher. However, I have noticed when walking past classrooms with a Saudi teacher the students were actually quiet and well behaved. |
That's cause the Saudi teacher knows how to threaten better than the expat. Plus he can threaten in Arabic. I threaten in English and my students ask me what "thrown out of class" or "I will give you zeros" means.
Grendal |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:34 am Post subject: Re: yep me too -till I asked 'em |
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| Grendal wrote: |
| cmp45 wrote: |
| sharter wrote: |
I was chatting about this to some Arabs the other day and they said that it's a word they use when they're pleading/begging for something. Saying please is a kind of loss of face.....if I understood them correctly.
I agree with you tho'. Arabs are very polite in public and the more you learn about their culture, the more you know it if that makes any sense.
I think a lot of teachers can't make the adjustment to their culture. Arabs are excitable, they do chatter and they do often lack discipline. It's just the way they are. They also lack study skills and it's not really their fault as it starts early doors in school. I like them. |
Yes, they certainly are a chatty bunch, well at least when they have a western teacher or 'expat" teacher. However, I have noticed when walking past classrooms with a Saudi teacher the students were actually quiet and well behaved. |
That's cause the Saudi teacher knows how to threaten better than the expat. Plus he can threaten in Arabic. I threaten in English and my students ask me what "thrown out of class" or "I will give you zeros" means.
Grendal |
Perhaps speaking Arabic has some advantage, but I think overall most Saudi students just have more blind respect for their Saudi teachers than expat teachers.
I think most Saudi students (ESL student's in general) despite their limited English can recognize when a teacher is angry, upset or displeased by noticing facial cues, body language as well as tone of voice...therefore, this lack of recognition is just blatant disrespect for non-Saudi teachers.
I acknowledge that there is a barrier of differences that lay between the expat teacher and Saudi students that needs to be broken down somehow, to find some commonality. Expat teachers have to work much harder at gaining the student's respect and control by other means than speaking in their native language and even if one could, I wonder if it would be all that effective... most often it remains a continuous struggle just due to the fact that we are non-Saudi and some how 'inferior' to them. Granted there are a few enlightened ones...but they are by far the exception. Perhaps as well they're just "young" therefore immature and lacking any sense of what is proper behaviour in a classroom setting.
I also for the most part enjoy teaching them, on most days...but somedays, I'd like to send the whole lot of them to the moon! |
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JerkyBoy
Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 485
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:58 am Post subject: Re: yep me too -till I asked 'em |
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| cmp45 wrote: |
| Perhaps speaking Arabic has some advantage, but I think overall most Saudi students just have more blind respect for their Saudi teachers than expat teachers. |
That was generally the case in Thailand. Automatic and unquestioned respect for HCNs.
| cmp45 wrote: |
| ... most often it remains a continuous struggle just due to the fact that we are non-Saudi and somehow 'inferior' to them. |
They probably presume moral superiority on grounds of their belief that theirs is the true faith. That was certainly the case in Thailand with the Thai Buddhists. |
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desert_traveller
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| JerkyBoy wrote: |
| ultraman111 wrote: |
| They learn quickly and are ideal students when the learning environment is condusive. |
Please elaborate. How do we engage Saudi students effectively? |
you let them play with their mobile phones
no other strategy will do the magic as well as this one. they will be quiet little angels in your class
they will not participate in the lesson or learn anything, but they would not do that anyways so no major difference there |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| desert_traveller wrote: |
| JerkyBoy wrote: |
| ultraman111 wrote: |
| They learn quickly and are ideal students when the learning environment is condusive. |
Please elaborate. How do we engage Saudi students effectively? |
you let them play with their mobile phones
no other strategy will do the magic as well as this one. they will be quiet little angels in your class
they will not participate in the lesson or learn anything, but they would not do that anyways so no major difference there |
Now, the secret is out!
Class management strategy when all else fails... Tis sad, but true |
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JerkyBoy
Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 485
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Heck.
(That's all I can say.) |
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teechagimme
Joined: 29 Dec 2010
Posts: 56
Location: S. Korea
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Saudi students do not know how to behave in an academic setting. I teach in the PYP program at PNU. They cheat, they disrupt class, they leave without permission, or if you give them permission to go pray or use the toilet, they take an hour and expect credit for being in class for that hour. I have no problems with my employer, and the administration is supportive but these girls are beyond the pale. If classroom management is not your strong suit, you are going to hate this place. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| If they think you are genuinely interested in teaching them and that you like them on a personal level, teaching Saudi students is a DODDLE. (ie very easy) |
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posh
Joined: 22 Oct 2010
Posts: 430
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| Every now and then I tell people to shut up, but make it a joke which they get. But of course al-Beardo put in a complaint so I told them I wouldn't tell them to shut up anymore, I'd tell them to shut it. |
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2buckets
Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 515
Location: Middle East
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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My experience has been similar to that of Scot47. I rarely had discipline problem with my Saudi or UAE students. In these places, I found the classroom is the best place to be.
Of course, the fact that I began my teaching career in an inner city school (where I made 5 trips to the emergency room in 3 years) after being assaulted by my JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS may have something to do with that. There, it was learn class control or DIE! |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
| If they think you are genuinely interested in teaching them and that you like them on a personal level, teaching Saudi students is a DODDLE. (ie very easy) |
This is very true. They know when you are genuine or not. I tell my students to shut up all the time in English and Arabic. Some learn that when they adjust their behavior accordingly, I am not in their face so much. The class clowns hardly ever learn to adjust their behavior  Tough love as the saying goes...I like my job even when i hate it, I still like it...if that makes any sense |
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bulgogiboy
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 803
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| JerkyBoy wrote: |
| ultraman111 wrote: |
| They learn quickly and are ideal students when the learning environment is condusive. |
Please elaborate. How do we engage Saudi students effectively? |
You might find, with a large percentage of your students at least, that you won't be able to engage them as effectively as you'd like, if at all. I've found that presenting information to the whole class is a challenge, both when I was in Saudi and here in Qatar. There are always students talking, and once you manage to get them to stop talking, it will suddenly spring up elsewhere in the classroom.
My advice:
1. Try not to get angry. In a lot of cases the students aren't deliberately trying to disrespect you by being late/chatting in Arabic/playing on their phones/etc, it's just they see this kind of behaviour as "no problem, teacher". The number one worst thing you can do is lose your temper (a lot), as the students will react badly to this. Easier said than done, of course.
2. Don't insist on following all the rules, exactly, all of the time. It's good to be flexible on certain things and at certain times. This is Arab culture, after all. The rules are more like 'suggestions'. If you try and follow all the rules as your college would have you, you will be the one to suffer in the long-run, not the students. The upper echelons of Saudi (and Qatari) management seem to be desperately out of touch with what can realistically be expected of the youths who attend these places, and this is reflected in the policies they implement.
3. Try to find humour in the silly things the students do (the excuses, the lies, the constant attempts at negotiation, etc). I've found that helps me a lot. When something is really irritating me, I try to make a joke of it, rather than lose my cool. The students will warm to you a lot more if you do this.
4. Accept that when you are presenting information you won't always be able to get everyone's attention, at least not at the same time. Accept that you will be ignored fairly frequently. Don't take it personally!
5. Try to get the students to work in small groups as much as possible. I find the students are more receptive when you give them a task or two to do, then go round, group by group, giving them attention. Sure, they are going to chat and mess around a bit, but that's going to happen in most classrooms in the Gulf, whether you like it or not.
6. Keep up the kind words and praise, even if you feel like strangling a particular student. It's amazing how a bit of simple kindness and understanding can get these guys on your side.
It's all easier said than done, I know, but if you make an effort, and keep cool, you'll have a good chance of staying sane during your stay in KSA!
I hope that helps. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Dear bulgogiboy,
All very good advice, I'd say. Patience and a sense of humor (not taking yourself too seriously) both help a lot.
Regards,
John |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
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