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ryan1981 · Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Posts: 8

Why is for considered a coordinating conjunction, while as, because, though etc� are subordinating?

For example:

I speak English, for I�m an English man.
I speak English, as I�m an English man.
I speak English, because I�m an English man.
I don't speak English, though I'm an English man.

Another example:

He is gambling with his health, for he has been smoking far too long.
He is gambling with his health, because he has been smoking far too long.

In my opinion, the examples above are all perfect examples of dependent clauses and therefore the conjunctions are subordinate.

In no way would I ever consider for to have coordinating attributes as in the following two sentences using and as the coordinating conjunction.

I speak English and I am an English man.
He is gambling with his health and he has been smoking far too long.

Basically, the way I see it, because may be replaced with for (although this usage is somewhat dated) and keep the same meaning, while and cannot be replaced with for.

If 1 = x, and x does not = y, then 1 does not =y

Am I missing something? If so, please enlighten me.

johntpartee · Joined: 02 Mar 2010 Posts: 3258

No, you're not missing anything. There is no reason. I tell that to students all of the time. Nobody knows why things are the way they are when it comes to our beloved mother tongue. That's why I stress to employers and students alike that trying to put English into neat little boxes is futile. Any "rule" is probably going to have an exception; therefore, "rule" is incorrect. "Guideline" is more appropriate.

PC Parrot · Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:12 am Post subject:

johnslat · Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject:

Dear PC Parrot,

However, "and", "but/yet", and "or/nor" are also coordinate conjunctions, and compound sentence that use them can almost always be "reversed".

Regards,
John

PC Parrot · Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:40 pm Post subject:

johnslat · Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:33 pm Post subject:

Dear PC Parrot,

"With co-ordinating conjunctions you cannot."

So, are you (and/or Halliday) saying that "and", "but/yet", "or/nor" are NOT coordinate conjunctions?

Regards,
John

PC Parrot · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:32 am Post subject:

No ..

Are you saying that (2) is an acceptable reversal of (1)?

(1) I like tea, but I don't like coffee.
(2) But I don't like coffee, I like tea.

Perhaps, instead of playing cat and mouse, you could tell us what you mean ... and roll out your examples from the King James Bible or from the romantic poets of the 1800's ..

johnslat · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:29 pm Post subject:

Dear PC Parrot,

Hmm, I thought you were a parrot, not a mouse. Very Happy

Ah, now I see what you meant, and i agree. But I don't understand your use of "the King James Bible" or "the Romantic poets of the 1800s".

Out of curiosity, is there anything in linguistic theory to justify putting the apostrophe with 1800's? I'm asking seriously since it's long been one of my "pet peeves", and it it IS justifiable, I'd like to know.

Regards,
John

Sashadroogie · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject:

Dear Johnslat

I believe it is similar to that pesky double genitive we talked about before.

S

johnslat · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:48 pm Post subject:

Dear Sasha,

One of my favorite double genitive songs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2xoAcLxY6I

Very Happy

Regards,
John

johnslat · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:37 pm Post subject:

Wouldn't another problem be this:

"With subordinating conjunctions, you can reverse the order:"

"so that", "as though", "as if", and "than" (to name a few) are subordinate conjunctions, but it's hard for me to think of a context in which they'd begin a sentence.

(Although I suppose I COULD find some examples in the King James version of the Bible or in the works of the Romantic poets Very Happy

)

Regards,
John

Sashadroogie · Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:56 am Post subject:

Not quite the Romantic poets...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-AYAv0IoWI

Manuel Geere · Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:00 pm Post subject: As if

"So he dumped me. As if I cared!" Good enough for you John?

johnslat · Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:13 pm Post subject:

Dear Manuel Geere,

Ah - but spoken English is not written English. We don't often speak in sentences; more often we use words, phrases or clauses.

Your examples aren't sentences, but are dependent clauses. Could you begin a written sentence with "As if"?

Regards,
John

Mike_2007 · Joined: 24 Apr 2007 Posts: 349 Location: Bucharest, Romania

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