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Midnight run from work?
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igorG

Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject:

Quote:

as far as i know, all safea-approved contracts have a way out.

as far as i know, all those ways out are based on approvals from our employers Wink

Zero

Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:19 pm Post subject:

Quoting stinkydofu:

Quote:

all safea-approved contracts have a way out

This is true, but if you need a release letter and they won't give it to you, then you have a problem.

Zero

Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:21 pm Post subject:

I have a feeling the OP is no longer able to post here, at least not under that name.

Mike E

Joined: 06 Oct 2011
Posts: 132

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:39 pm Post subject:

Opiate wrote:

..considering the OP has not said a single word in this thread since it was created...I am inclined to believe he was just trolling. So really...we are all likely wasting our time here.

No we're not, it's an important topic. I read discussions like this one routinely while I was looking for a job in China. FTs should always check out the experiences and opinions of other FTs.
My own personal experience is that my university uses a safea contract and would not negotiate any of the terms. I decided to take them (and the other American teacher here) at their word that they are good to their teachers, in fact often better than the contract stipulates. And so far this has been my experience. I think this is like a lottery win in Chinese ESL, though, and everything I hear leads me to believe that the opposite (receiving less than your contract guarantees) is much more common here.

shadowrider

Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Posts: 208

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:00 am Post subject:

choudoufu wrote:

Zero wrote:

choudofu, or stinkydoufu, or whatever your name is: It's not as simple as sign/not sign. So often, the school doesn't hold up its end of the bargain. Then what? At that point it's too late to say, "Don't sign."

i was responding to the 'forced' comment - the teachers at one particular
school being forced to do xxx with no way out. no details provided as to
what they were forced to do, nor whether the school had breached the
contract. as far as i know, all safea-approved contracts have a way out.

True, but they also have an odious clause that is unavoidable - the payment penalty clause for wanting out of the contract early. With many of our salaries, it often adds up to 1 to 2 months salary. Hence pulling a runner is often the best and only way out of bad situation.

Many FTs when given extra classes and extra duties outside of the contract or late/ withheld pay or other issues won't fight it as the employer holds all the marbles.

Yes, you do hold your own FEC and visa/residence permit inside your passport but the school can easily have it invalidated at the PSB. So you are holding 2 worthless documents.

The Great Wall of Whiner

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:41 am Post subject:

My friend just ripped up his contract and there is absolutely nothing the school can do about it because they have cut his net salary, hence breaking the contract. After trying to discuss the issue, he was told that he "must" accept this cut in salary. He said that they "must" find a new foreign teacher then.

stinkytofu

Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 104

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:16 am Post subject:

The Great Wall of Whiner wrote:

My friend just ripped up his contract and there is absolutely nothing the school can do about it because they have cut his net salary, hence breaking the contract. After trying to discuss the issue, he was told that he "must" accept this cut in salary. He said that they "must" find a new foreign teacher then.

This is normal operating proceedure for Chinese businesses. They expect their employees to just bend over because they say so, this works for Chinese employees but no foreigner is going to put up with it. Which leaves the teacher with several options....

MOD EDIT
3. Do a midnight run

Now, if your sane most of the time, you'll probably be interested in option #3.

choudoufu

Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:37 am Post subject:

shadowrider wrote:

True, but they also have an odious clause that is unavoidable - the payment penalty clause for wanting out of the contract early.

i still fail to see how this is unavoidable. if the clause is 'odious,' then
request/demand that it be amended...BEFORE you sign. if the school
will not change that odiosity, you may look elsewhere, thereby avoiding
the unavoidable.

stinkytofu (unaffiliated) said teachers were forced to do things with no
way out. but they DID have a way out. they just didn't like it.

Mike E

Joined: 06 Oct 2011
Posts: 132

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:23 am Post subject:

choudoufu wrote:

shadowrider wrote:

True, but they also have an odious clause that is unavoidable - the payment penalty clause for wanting out of the contract early.

If you have about ten years to do nothing but look for the perfect job in China, then maybe you could find a situation where you get to choose to sign only a mythical perfect contract. But otherwise, I reckon, we all wind up signing contracts that have potentially quite questionable things in them.

choudoufu

Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:02 am Post subject:

Mike E wrote:

i take it you agree with me then. we all have degrees, some have
certificates (online of off), most have experience. we have our
savings when we arrive. we DO have the luxury of choosing which
contract to sign. we have our western passports, which allow us
the freedom to go somewhere else. the possibilities are limitless.

you have thousands of schools in china. you can choose other asian
countries. you can try the middle east or south america. or jinkies!
you can even return to your home country if you so desire.

i don't imagine any teacher here was brought over on a slave ship, or
is so desperate they will sign the first contract offered without reading
it first. if the school is not upholding their part of the contract, then
we'll fight. but how can you complain about a contract clause that you
agreed to when you signed?

Mike E

Joined: 06 Oct 2011
Posts: 132

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:53 am Post subject:

choudoufu wrote:

i don't imagine any teacher here was brought over on a slave ship, or is so desperate they will sign the first contract offered without reading it first.

This would be a terrible idea, yes. But...

choudoufu wrote:

if the school is not upholding their part of the contract, then we'll fight.

I think it's important to stress that this happens very often here, and that there is no guarantee that you will have any effective recourse.

choudoufu wrote:

but how can you complain about a contract clause that you agreed to when you signed?

Limiting the discussion, for the moment, to situations in which the school is not blatantly going against what the contract said... The contract probably contains language that is inexact enough to give the school plenty of leeway to change the way they treat you and still claim to not be breaking the terms. Again, if you find that there is anything meaningful you can do about this -- except for the titular midnight run -- then I think you're a lucky soul.

I don't know. You have a lot of faith in the process, and good for you. But my experience job-seeking in China has been that the contracts always give the school plenty of power over the teacher, and the schools I talked to were not willing to change their contracts. As you say, the teacher does not have to sign on. But as I say, a teacher who always walks away from imperfect or questionable contracts seems unlikely to wind up employed in China.

And again, some schools will go on to disregard the terms of the contract once you work for them anyway.

therock

Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 1266
Location: China

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:29 am Post subject:

choudoufu wrote:

i take it you agree with me then. we all have degrees, some have
certificates (online of off), most have experience. we have our
savings when we arrive. ?

I think this part is questionable, I would doubt "all" FT's teachers have degrees, I'd probably say most FT's don't have degrees, any certificates or experience, most would usually have one of the three. But then this is expected, since the average salary is 4000 - 5000rmb a month, why would any sane person with a degree, TESOL certifcate and experience come here and work for peanuts.

Mike E

Joined: 06 Oct 2011
Posts: 132

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:43 am Post subject:

I have two of the three, and am here to get some of the third. Am working for 6000 yuan, as well as decent benefits and decent conditions.

igorG

Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:49 am Post subject:

I would not come to such conclusions. Midnight runs have been for reasons and either the pay or lack of degrees are most likely not why there is such a professional dissatisfaction. Have a look at your terms, conditions, support and expectations of you.

johntpartee

Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3258

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:06 am Post subject:

Quote:

Midnight runs have been for reasons and either the pay or lack of degrees are most likely not why there is such a professional dissatisfaction

I would tend to agree. Most of the "teachers" I've seen here are here for one very good reason: they were unemployed and unemployable in their natural habitat. Most (if not all) of the legit teachers I've seen here are dissatisfied because of the bad reputation that foreign teachers have. Most institutions consider us disposable; there's always another Caucasian face with a pulse to fill the void. Very few of the pseudo-teachers will stand up for their rights during a contract dispute. Schools usually get away with changing terms mid-contract, withholding bonuses, etc.

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