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slapntickle
Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 270
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 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Dedicated wrote: |
for slapntickle :
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| From an administrator's point of view, an IELTS 9 would be judged as "intelligent" and it would get a student onto a law degree at Oxford and Cambridge |
What absolute rubbish ! An IELTS score of 9 merely shows that the candidate "has operational command of the language appropriate, accurate and fluent with complete understanding".
In the admissions office of a UK university, they look at the IELTS score, but primarily, the department would look at the personal statement, previous experience/qualifications.
I had a Chinese student with IELTS 7.00, who wanted to go to Cambridge. She went for the interview, for Maths, and had 1 hour to solve a problem which had not been solved for 25 years.She solved it in 25 minutes. Cambridge phoned to say "we must have this student". |
Yes, but your student in the example is studying maths and not English. One could argue that "complete understanding" may not be wholly relevant in this case. But I digress . . .
An IELTS 9 is rarely given, so those that get them would be held in high regard by University Admissions. And so they should. If more students got higher IELTS scores, it might boost the standards in our universities. True, IELTS isn't everything, but allowing students in with an IELTS 4 is just taking the piss. And please don't tell me that a 2 month presessional course over the summer will give the students the required language skills to navigate a difficult MA or Ph.d. That argument simply will not wash. |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| igorG wrote: |
Why don't you "inform" us how you/your school have acquired the cream of the crop for further abroad studies? And, why don't you enlighten us on how they get prepared? If you already have, then would you be kind enough to summarize it on this page?
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We didn't get the cream of the crop of English speakers, but we did transform a lot of them into pretty functional speakers and writers.
When I taught in the states, I was not involved for their preparation for entry. I could see TOEFEL scores if I wanted to see them. I never asked because I didn't usually teach the all- foreign students' freshman classes. My students were considered proficient enough not to take those classes. (There were usually 3-5 class sections per semester just for foreigners, and their section numbers indicated that they were for foreign students, so they could opt to take that particular freshman English class or not).
Since one university had no foundational English language course, many incoming foreign students attended a local junior college that offered foundational English if they were considered borderline. Then they usually transferred to the university. It worked out quite well. To my knowledge, the community college accepted no foreign students who were seriously deficient in English language skills and incapable of intelligent conversation. The universities (and community college) where I taught all have writing centers that are open to all students where they could get an hour's worth of one-on-one writing tutoring. It's really a pretty good (and challenging) system.
Schools where I taught didn't have to resort to reeling in the high-paying foreign students with low standards. We got students from all over the world who came for an education. Their parents paid the bill and the students got the education. That's not to say that foreign students didn't fail English classes. Passing an entrance exam is one thing, but making progress from that point is quite another. They took the freshman course until they passed (usually on the second try). |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| Dedicated wrote: |
| I had a Chinese student with IELTS 7.00, who wanted to go to Cambridge. She went for the interview, for Maths, and had 1 hour to solve a problem which had not been solved for 25 years.She solved it in 25 minutes. Cambridge phoned to say "we must have this student". |
My FAO scored 7.00 in IELTS too. He's apparently graduated from some quick one year overseas course. He misunderstands plenty under pressure and he has some real troubles solving varieties of puzzles that are cleared up on daily basis by others. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| Miles Smiles wrote: |
| igorG wrote: |
Why don't you "inform" us how you/your school have acquired the cream of the crop for further abroad studies? And, why don't you enlighten us on how they get prepared? If you already have, then would you be kind enough to summarize it on this page?
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We didn't get the cream of the crop of English speakers, but we did transform a lot of them into pretty functional speakers and writers.
When I taught in the states, I was not involved for their preparation for entry. I could see TOEFEL scores if I wanted to see them. I never asked because I didn't usually teach the all- foreign students' freshman classes. My students were considered proficient enough not to take those classes. (There were usually 3-5 class sections per semester just for foreigners, and their section numbers indicated that they were for foreign students, so they could opt to take that particular freshman English class or not).
Since one university had no foundational English language course, many incoming foreign students attended a local junior college that offered foundational English if they were considered borderline. Then they usually transferred to the university. It worked out quite well. To my knowledge, the community college accepted no foreign students who were seriously deficient in English language skills and incapable of intelligent conversation. The universities (and community college) where I taught all have writing centers that are open to all students where they could get an hour's worth of one-on-one writing tutoring. It's really a pretty good (and challenging) system.
Schools where I taught didn't have to resort to reeling in the high-paying foreign students with low standards. We got students from all over the world who came for an education. Their parents paid the bill and the students got the education. That's not to say that foreign students didn't fail English classes. Passing an entrance exam is one thing, but making progress from that point is quite another. They took the freshman course until they passed (usually on the second try). |
We also only got the cr*p of English speakers although they all are, parents inclusive, so eager to study abroad. Requesting me to transform them into "pretty functional speakers and writers" is an indecent proposal which i have intentionally accepted.
When I taught in Canada, I had classes of international students and Chinese were an unfortunate standout posing some similar challenges to the ones of my current class. I was/am familiar with TOEFL; however, i'd like to know more about TOEFEL and any differences in between.
Universities accepted comparable quality of Chinese students in 1990s. One difference was the much lower tuition fees then.
In the modern business world of 2012, there is one huge difference from early 1990s and that is the demand for communication skills. This ought to put a greater emphasis on talents and skills. Otherwise, we will bring the doomsday on ourselves one day. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| igorG wrote: |
| This ought to put a greater emphasis on talents and skills. Otherwise, we will bring the doomsday on ourselves one day. |
But this really has nothing to do with English. Skills are not based on a language. I actually teach a class on life and university skills. It takes a while to get all of the students to understand I am not teaching them English, and their English ability is very little of what is being assessed.
Part of teaching in another country, or teaching students from another country, is understanding the differences. I think the biggest difference with Chinese students, as mentioned before here, is the fact that the parents often chose their line of study. I had a student a few years back who was doing really well, problem was he was unhappy. His English was good, he had a good work ethic. Talking with him though, he really didn't want to study business. He was into science and music. I gave him encouragement and told him he shouldn't study something he doesn't like. He battled with his parents for a while, now he is studying physics in Sweden. When he came back for New Years he stopped here (way out of the way on his road to Beijing) he came to say thanks. The problem I think most of us and teachers of Chinese abroad face is apathy from students. It is not that they can't, it is that they wont (for the majority in my experience). They are trying to come to terms with the question, why? |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| I quite agree with you but saying that this has "nothing to do with English" is irresponsibly overstated. |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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MOD EDIT
These are young people; teenagers and twenty somethings. They've been hounded through their lives by parents and educators here. Now they can be criticized for having a lack of motivation? I'm sure when you were teenagers all you thought about was getting that high mark on that test. No, they're not going to be model students in the eyes of western unis and students. They don't know how to debate and disagree. They're not going to speak up. They're not going to be great social mixers. They're not going to have great language or interpersonal communications skills. It's just not who they are. They have other strengths.
Perhaps it all comes down to who one thinks should be able to attend a university and what the role of higher education is. Should it be accessible only to the academic elite, or exist to provide education for the average student of average ability? I think it's pretty obvious that education and knowledge do not necessarily make one a better or more intelligent person, but rather the application of that knowledge in the context of a given situation. Yes. What I'm saying is that it's quite possible to be a highly-educated fool or a poorly-educated genius.
University prep programs are just that; preparation. Basic language and academic study skills taught to try to compensate for a lack of exposure to the environment. Maybe the student will succeed, maybe they will fail. All they want is a chance, and only the most self-righteous and indignant wanker would deny it to them. I agree that this situation is not their fault. If you personally feel that tertiary standards are threatened or have been compromised, perhaps you should address your concerns to the people who actually set the standards for admission to the ivory tower.
RED |
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slapntickle
Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Lobster wrote: |
| No, they're not going to be model students in the eyes of western unis and students. They don't know how to debate and disagree. They're not going to speak up. They're not going to be great social mixers. They're not going to have great language or interpersonal communications skills. It's just not who they are. They have other strengths. |
But these skills are valued in the West and in a western university context. If they can't debate and disagree, etc, then they are like fish out of water and perhaps need to find another lake where they can swim with ease. Of course, some fish will get through the net and go on to swim in foreign waters, but these are exceptions. The vast majority of people are born with a certain talent and it is this talent that needs to be nurtured, whether it be taxi-driving, architecture, premier league football, movie-making, sweeping the streets or academics. I'm not sure if David Beckham would ever have made a philosopher or John Lennon a paratrooper . . . what matters is that they found their place, honed their talent and did it to the best of their ability. People, like water, eventually find their own level. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Lobster wrote: |
Perhaps it all comes down to who one thinks should be able to attend a university and what the role of higher education is. Should it be accessible only to the academic elite, or exist to provide education for the average student of average ability? I think it's pretty obvious that education and knowledge do not necessarily make one a better or more intelligent person, but rather the application of that knowledge in the context of a given situation. Yes. What I'm saying is that it's quite possible to be a highly-educated fool or a poorly-educated genius.
University prep programs are just that; preparation. Basic language and academic study skills taught to try to compensate for a lack of exposure to the environment. Maybe the student will succeed, maybe they will fail. All they want is a chance, and only the most self-righteous and indignant wanker would deny it to them. I agree that this situation is not their fault. If you personally feel that tertiary standards are threatened or have been compromised, perhaps you should address your concerns to the people who actually set the standards for admission to the ivory tower. |
I would like to think that pre and primary education is for all while secondary education for average students of average ability. The secondary schooling serves as a filter for higher education. Pushing the average through the filter may and does create a dangerous conjecture.
It is easily agreeable that one�s acquired knowledge put into practice makes him/her better only; however, how does one gain higher level proficiency in specialty subjects when s/he is dependent on uncompetitive environment where due to language issues professors adjust their effort in the program?
The highly educated fools do and will most likely come out of such programs that accommodate average students of average ability and the poorly educated geniuses do and will more often end up as subordinates. Moreover, there are and will be too many highly educated fools around who�ll make wrong decisions in the field and who�ll increase the unemployment rate and delude the job market of poorly educated geniuses.
Tertiary educational institutions are higher than secondary for the reason that they ought to accept candidates who have performed well in areas they wish to study further in. Contemplating that maybe the students will succeed or maybe they won�t deserve condemnation, recruiting such students is a punishable offense.
University prep programs must not only focus on basic but advanced and perhaps academic language and not only on the study but other specialty skills students wish to pursue. There are so many young mainland Chinese that often do not have plans until the last moment when the application form arrives. There also are some that have plans but when the applications arrive they change their minds for varieties of reasons. Undoubtedly, such situations happen in Canadian or the US high schools, although their foundation of the language and even the specialty subjects is better than the shaky basis of young mainland Chinese that often cannot make it in their own system for pretty good reasons. The fact that many, if not most, of them lack the exposure to the language or another system�s education, ought to alarm the professionals working in such prep programs as well as the western universities� recruiters. Actions against those flexible practices would most certainly improve standards in both the western unis and in the international prep programs for them.
This thread is a great demonstration of what goes on in western universities when it comes to international students, and it is terrific that we can discuss the topic further. Anyone can forward his/her discontent to people who handle international students� applications in the west and perhaps even higher as much as anyone can participate on the forums debate. |
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MisterButtkins
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 1221
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| IMO if there are ever different sections of a course for international students it's a problem. The university I attended, University of Texas at Austin, didn't have such nonsense. The foreigners were in the same sections as the other students and were graded in the exact same fashion. I believe we required an IELTS 6.5 to get in. I do not feel the academic standards at that school are going to be compromised any time soon. In fact, the school was actually trying to reduce total enrollment while I was there in order to increase the prestige of the degrees. |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| MisterButtkins wrote: |
| IMO if there are ever different sections of a course for international students it's a problem. The university I attended, University of Texas at Austin, didn't have such nonsense. The foreigners were in the same sections as the other students and were graded in the exact same fashion. I believe we required an IELTS 6.5 to get in. I do not feel the academic standards at that school are going to be compromised any time soon. In fact, the school was actually trying to reduce total enrollment while I was there in order to increase the prestige of the degrees. |
To my knowledge, where I taught, the only courses that were offered solely to foreign students was freshman English composition. The class content was actually not much different from other other English composition classes. Counselors often steered foreign students to those classes, but it was not mandatory that they take that specific English comp section. Math, science, engineering, architecture, business, upper-level English courses, and other departments made no distinction between American and foreign students.
We did have writing centers for those (American and foreign alike) who needed help with their papers. There were also "learning centers" where students who needed help with study skills could go for help. The learning center were used primarily by American in-state students who were allow to enroll in the university regardless of their abilities solely because state admissions required the school to admit them. Most flunked out by their first year. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| MisterButtkins wrote: |
| IMO if there are ever different sections of a course for international students it's a problem. The university I attended, University of Texas at Austin, didn't have such nonsense. The foreigners were in the same sections as the other students and were graded in the exact same fashion. I believe we required an IELTS 6.5 to get in. I do not feel the academic standards at that school are going to be compromised any time soon. In fact, the school was actually trying to reduce total enrollment while I was there in order to increase the prestige of the degrees. |
I thought that TOELF, not IELTS, was accepted in the University of Texas. Moreover, i thought that most American universities were attempting to increase their enrollments, and fees, rather than decrease them. But it makes sense that the prestige is the reason why unis are able to build their success on.
As for the international students in the US universities, i'd watch out for hostilities towards them. The anger in local students is running high and incidents are on the rise. |
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MisterButtkins
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 1221
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| I thank you for the link. It's interesting they accept the British proficiency test but do not mention the Canadian one. Perhaps north of the border they focus more on their own unis needs. |
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slapntickle
Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| Lobster wrote: |
| Yes. It seems as western institutes of higher learning feel the crunch in terms of cash and dropping local enrollment, they are looking elsewhere. If students can't meet the traditional standards set by the institution, they become more "accommodating". Of course in the long run, their reputations will be tarnished and graduates will not have the skills or knowledge required to raise the standards of their professions. Perhaps in time, the western institutions will be about as poor as their Chinese counterparts and start pulling the no-fail, dumbed-down hijinx seen here. |
One British millionaire and entrepreneur echoes your sentiments. Simon Dolan, who is worth more than �100m, said that degrees are �worthless� and that many university courses available across the UK are �ridiculous�. And here are the reasons why:
Managing a staff of more than 200 people, he told Yahoo! Finance that �younger, brighter candidates are much more employable� than university graduates.
�No matter what the government say we know that the current system doesn�t work,� he said. �As an employer myself I know a degree is worthless, every other employer I speak to says the same in the main part. University is not the issue of whether you had a good time or not it is the whether you will be employable at the end of it.
�Graduates come out with a self-right to not have to flip burgers even if it is the only job they can get.
"Schools need to educate children to become fully rounded human beings and not make them just pass exams so they can get to university.
"I think a far larger part needs to be taken with how to be useful in an office or work environment."
And he adds:
�Formerly university was the place for talented people to go to get higher education for later life,� Mr Dolan said. �It typically wasn�t the place where everyone went�everyone can�t be the most intelligent in society."
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/leading-british-entrepreneur-simon-dolan--degrees-are-worthless.html
Simon Dolan has obviously made lots of money by taking risks and predicting markets. Here too he is making another prediction. In a nutshell he is arguing that the scarcer the product, the greater the value. Degrees are worthless these days because too many people have them. They're a dime a dozen. Turning our best universities in both the UK and the USA into money-making machines, and selling degrees to any Tom, Dick, and Wang has devalued a product that used give young people valuable skills and ensure employment upon graduation. Not any more.
Maybe we should forgo university and instead read Mr Dolan's new book 'How to make millions without a degree�? It'd be cheaper and may equip us with the skills to make lots of cash . . . |
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