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ZennoSaji
Joined: 02 Feb 2010
Posts: 87
Location: Mito, Ibaraki
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 Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
| matador wrote: |
| Another thing I picked up on is putting "Japanese" in front of a lot of items. |
Yup, seen that a bunch myself. Students sometimes say, "English is difficult for Japanese." (Is it easy for Mexicans? Russians?) |
Well it is in fact easier for Romance speakers to learn English than it is for Asian language speakers, and vice versa. Can't get too much farther apart on the Linguistics spectrum there.
I do remember working in a sushi bar here in Cali, and was told "We don't do [tally marks] that way, we do it the Japanese way." How nice for you; I'm the one writing the ticket.  |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ZennoSaji wrote: |
| steki47 wrote: |
| matador wrote: |
| Another thing I picked up on is putting "Japanese" in front of a lot of items. |
Yup, seen that a bunch myself. Students sometimes say, "English is difficult for Japanese." (Is it easy for Mexicans? Russians?) |
Well it is in fact easier for Romance speakers to learn English than it is for Asian language speakers, and vice versa. Can't get too much farther apart on the Linguistics spectrum there. |
Ok, smarty pants 
What about Chinese or Koreans? Is English somehow easier for them? |
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dove
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 271
Location: USA/Japan
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| Not to get off topic, but something I have seen some Japanese speakers do, is dumb down their English abilities depending on their surroundings. Some Japanese learners of English are afraid they will be perceived of showing off if their English is too good. Even reading an English book on the train could be viewed as showing off, so of course the book is covered. At one of my jobs, I was told not to call on students individually--not knowing the answer could be traumatic and knowing the answer could be as well. Some Japanese people (Key word--SOME) also fear that if they speak English too well, they will be seen as abandoning their Japanese-ness.....nothing is simple in Japan....some (here I go again, guess I am putting on my anti-flame suit) students admitted to me recently that Japan is the land of complexes and neuroses. |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| dove wrote: |
| Some Japanese people (Key word--SOME) also fear that if they speak English too well, they will be seen as abandoning their Japanese-ness.... |
They generally don't like to stand out in any way, even in a "good" way. In some cases, they fear that if the boss finds out they can speak some English, they will get roped into lots of extra responsibilities they really don't want. I had a few adult students deliberately "turn off" their English if one of us teachers went into their department store.
And some Japanese may gossip negatively about an individual Japanese who has acquired a level of proficiency in a foreign language. I still scratch my head a bit on that one. That is to say, I understand it in an anthropology textbook kind of way, but still find it puzzling that people would hide potentially beneficial skills because they fear being different. Oh well, not my culture. |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| dove wrote: |
| Not to get off topic, but something I have seen some Japanese speakers do, is dumb down their English abilities depending on their surroundings. Some Japanese learners of English are afraid they will be perceived of showing off if their English is too good. Even reading an English book on the train could be viewed as showing off, so of course the book is covered. At one of my jobs, I was told not to call on students individually--not knowing the answer could be traumatic and knowing the answer could be as well. Some Japanese people (Key word--SOME) also fear that if they speak English too well, they will be seen as abandoning their Japanese-ness.....nothing is simple in Japan....some (here I go again, guess I am putting on my anti-flame suit) students admitted to me recently that Japan is the land of complexes and neuroses. |
Worse is teachers dumbuing down their English and saying "Me English, you Japanese!" etc... I have heard teachers talk like this 
I think the Japanese speaker s who pretend to be not very good spaekers are just modest. 
There might be more modesty in Japan because it has a refined civilized culture. In America, Canada and Australia the sulture is usually very vulgar and show-offy so people want everyone else to know that they are like the best person in the whole wide world and oooh look at me.  |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:02 am Post subject: |
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I love "We Japanese..."
Actually I hate it really. I don't like the way it is used usually to make some sweeping statement that isnt always true such as "we Japanese work hard" and "Japan is a safety country because we Japanese don't commit crimes unlike the Chinese." Or, "We Japanese are not racist because there are no black people here." etc... etc... 
In most of Japanese people's lives they don't meet many foreigners so often when they do they want to talkabout and discuss differences between cultures. I think mostly it is just curiousity but that may explain why you sometimes hear some surprising sentences.
Also notice that we are trying to generalize about Japanese people's generalizations!  |
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ZennoSaji
Joined: 02 Feb 2010
Posts: 87
Location: Mito, Ibaraki
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
Ok, smarty pants
What about Chinese or Koreans? Is English somehow easier for them? |
Wow, I must be behind on my current events if Chinese and Koreans have stopped being considered "Asian language speakers"  |
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OneJoelFifty
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| On a related note...anyone very good at telling "American jokes"? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:36 am Post subject: |
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IMO, I wouldn't say that the reason Japanese are so modest is because they are a "refined" culture. I'm not even sure what that means!
IMO, they are modest because they grow up with the mindset of not losing face. Shame is a big motivator in Japan (and many Asian cultures). |
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HLJHLJ
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 1218
Location: Ecuador
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
And some Japanese may gossip negatively about an individual Japanese who has acquired a level of proficiency in a foreign language. I still scratch my head a bit on that one. That is to say, I understand it in an anthropology textbook kind of way, but still find it puzzling that people would hide potentially beneficial skills because they fear being different. Oh well, not my culture. |
It's not specific to Japan. Mitt Romney was ridiculed in the USA for being able to speak French. |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
IMO, I wouldn't say that the reason Japanese are so modest is because they are a "refined" culture. I'm not even sure what that means!
IMO, they are modest because they grow up with the mindset of not losing face. Shame is a big motivator in Japan (and many Asian cultures). |
Yeah but why would being good at English be a face looser? |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ZennoSaji wrote: |
| steki47 wrote: |
Ok, smarty pants
What about Chinese or Koreans? Is English somehow easier for them? |
Wow, I must be behind on my current events if Chinese and Koreans have stopped being considered "Asian language speakers" |
OK, my apologies. Feel a bit dumb now. *blushes*
My point is that I don't think English is somehow extra difficult only for Japanese people and thus somehow easier for other people. Yet that's how many of them see their relationship with English. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Cool Teacher wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
IMO, I wouldn't say that the reason Japanese are so modest is because they are a "refined" culture. I'm not even sure what that means!
IMO, they are modest because they grow up with the mindset of not losing face. Shame is a big motivator in Japan (and many Asian cultures). |
Yeah but why would being good at English be a face looser? |
A sense of perfection, perhaps. I knew a woman who had taken dance lessons for 15 years and still claimed to be "not so good" at it, despite winning some trophies. Also, if they are around another Japanese when saying this, they may simply not want to appear to be boasting, even if they are good. Different culture, different norms. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
OK, my apologies. Feel a bit dumb now. *blushes*
My point is that I don't think English is somehow extra difficult only for Japanese people and thus somehow easier for other people. Yet that's how many of them see their relationship with English. |
It's a known fact that it's harder for Asian language speakers to learn English than it is for say a German language speaker. Just like it's harder for English speakers to learn Asian languages. Anyone who has studied languages at all hears about this on the first day.
That's why it's so easy for English speakers to learn languages like German or Spanish, but takes many more years to learn a language like Vietnamese or Japanese. |
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ZennoSaji
Joined: 02 Feb 2010
Posts: 87
Location: Mito, Ibaraki
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
OK, my apologies. Feel a bit dumb now. *blushes*
My point is that I don't think English is somehow extra difficult only for Japanese people and thus somehow easier for other people. Yet that's how many of them see their relationship with English. |
Hehe it's cool. You'd just walked into that one. XD
But in that particular instance it's more colloquial to be specific than broad. For example, I'd easily complain that because I speak English natively, Japanese is difficult for me to learn, as opposed to "because I speak a Romantic/Western language, it's difficult for me to learn an Asian language like Japanese." |
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