Job Discussion Forums

[CThomas]

If you look at the site, JB, you might see what looks like a fuel injection control thingy; it doesn't look like it replaces the fuel injection (nor alters the engine) but instead controls it. Something I think could be re-done if need be.

Along these lines, I think it costs about $2500 to get an imported bike pollution tested if it isn't on the exempt list, as least in the US. Makers can do this with entire lines of vehicles (it's the laboratory deal, not just your typical pollution inspection shop), but for an individual bike, it could be a blank-ton of money for one bike. Please check on your country's laws for this. The only exporting of bikes successfully exported out of Vietnam that I know of are the vintage, pre-1986, bikes, which are excluded from the regs..

[CThomas]

I know that the specialized pro shops may do some great stuff, but I'm going to say be careful what you use them for. For example, for a basic 110 to 130 bore, I was quoted 15 million by a specialized shop. I got it done for 1.5 million. A stroke and bore both were necessary to 150, costing the same. While I may not have my figures exact (I pretty much stopped listening at this point) I'm saying that if anyone wants to make their Wave go a lot faster for 1.5- 2m, talk to me and I'll get my cousin on it. He did mine and it has been great.

Yes, if you want to super-max out your bike, then look into specialty shops, but I'm saying that a lot can be done on the cheap before investing in specialty parts and labor.

[sigmoid]

Maybe youse guys can join in the fun:

Motorbike racers �storm� HCMC streets

http://www.thanhniennews.com/2010/Pages/20110924-Motorbike-racers-storm-streets.aspx

[CThomas]

I really think the city should create a race-way for these guys, perhaps around the airport. And the racing shops could/should get behind it. As for me, I'm happy to get about the equivalent of an Airblade or perhaps 150 out of my Wave. I use the power wisely. These guys (and girls) are in and causing so much danger but their youth keeps them from understanding it. I actually sold my 650 when I was 18 knowing that I'd kill myself if I didn't; the traffic here makes the possibility of taking someone else with them much higher.

[haller_79]

This worst part was this:

They also modify exhaust pipes to give them that distinctive, deafening roar that defines the races.

I think I'd prefer http://www.chairborneranger.com/oldsaigon/oldsaigon08.htm

[mark_in_saigon]

Some notes on buying/maintaining motorbikes in Vietnam, also discussion on classic Hondas and the issues relating to the manual clutch on these bikes. Technical discussions are more towards the bottom, I tried to keep the info relevant to normal users up on top. Same thing with discussions about classic Hondas, the issues of increasing displacement, as well as the issue of the manual clutch on the classic Hondas. I tried to keep that stuff towards the bottom of the post.


If you are new to VN, or just new to motorbikes here, my suggestion is, if buying a bike, don�t spend much more than $400, unless you just want a fancy bike, you want the more modern bike with locking compartment under the seat, you want a well restored classic, or you just have money to burn. You can get a plenty good beater for $400 or so, and can get a serviceable cub for even less. A 50cc cub will get you all over the flatlands of HCMC with no problem, and you can get one of those for about $250 or even less. Nicer ones are more, classics are up to about $500 if freshly painted and restored. Even those will likely need some mods on them, the sellers do cosmetic stuff but do not always address the issues needed to make the machine first rate. Chain driven Hondas of 110 cc or less seem to all share the same technology of the Cub, the engines and transmissions are quite similar, and they are just great bikes. I do not like the plastic bodies on the newer bikes, but that is just my preference. All these chain driven Hondas should be fine. If it does not smoke, if it shifts okay, does not make noises when running, stops okay, feels okay at speed, if the electrical stuff all works, then it should be fine. They all have little issues develop, and little stuff is very cheap to get fixed. The chain driven Hondas are easy to work on, I have seen top half engine overhauls done for less than 20 bucks. If the bike is not chain driven, if it is one of these newer bikes with the wide body and the engine hidden inside the body, I cannot speak with much authority. I personally do not like these bikes, but that is really just a preference for the old technology which was excellent versus the newer fancy stuff which should also be good, but should also be more expensive and more difficult to work on. One of the main things you are buying when you spend more for a newer style bike is the locking compartment under the seat. I think most of these expensive bikes have a constantly variable transmission (or whatever they call it), where you do not shift gears at all. Someday that may be the world standard, personally, I like shifting gears, and I especially like a manual clutch.

I still find the old classic Hondas to be the best moto for a purist. For the average teacher it does not matter too much what kind of bike you buy. Just drive it before you buy it, if it runs okay, it probably is. You can sure get a decent enough bike for two or three hundred bucks here, and you can spend a lot more if you want to.


If you use Craigslist to search for a bike, there is a pretty significant change in what is happening there. In the last several months, the moto ads have become dominated by expats who have traveled from HN to HCMC (or the reverse trip), and are selling their bikes. I think a lot of these guys have been motivated by the Top Gear video on driving across the country that one can find online. They seem to know where to buy their bikes, and seem to mostly use the same sources for that. Those dealers also advertise on CL. There may be some (or a lot of) duplication on these resale ads the expats run, like 4 guys make the trip, then maybe all 4 have individual ads with all 4 bikes listed. As always on CL, it can be confusing. Usually these ads will offer the bikes at about 10 to 20 percent less than the original purchase price, which is not really that great. Occasionally they will be more highly discounted. Often the bikes being offered are the Honda Win, which has some similarities to the classic Honda 67, but is a newer version. It does have the manual clutch of course, which is probably a good thing for the hills in the north. I do get the feeling this bike is a cheap copy of the original though, likely not made in Japan. I might buy one as a beater, would be careful about putting a bunch of money into a restoration on this model though. Some of these Wins may be made in Japan and thus would be worth more than the Chinese models. I think this could be a good bike for some folks, but would not recommend it for the average teacher, especially because of the manual clutch. It could be fine for outside the cities, one could also do the automatic transmission conversion on this bike if you just had to have one. The Win seems to come with a 100 cc ( or even 110), so this engine could be punched out a bit and should really haul ass. See the detailed notes below on displacement increases.

With reference to the dealers selling to these cross country guys, I just have knowledge of two of them in HCMC, none about the dealers in HN. I think the person selling these Wins in HCMC must be close to the backpackers area, if anyone has insight on this dealer, please add that info. There appears to be two main dealers for classics in HCMC, if I am not mistaken. I am somewhat familiar with both of these operators, one is a true westerner (a Brit), the other is a VK. They have both been doing this for a while. The Brit likely has more advanced knowledge and skill about motos. Both can sell you a nice looking bike. The problem with either is you never truly know what you are getting inside the engines. I have heard a little bit more complaining about the VK guy. Both of them have disappointed me with big mistakes, but they were somewhat hidden mistakes. I might recommend using the Brit if you can be sure he does not sub the work out of his shop, when he does sub out, it can be a disaster. If you can be sure he does the work at his shop, it is probably fine, if not, avoid him. Using either of these guys, you have to confirm what you want done, and that it is done as agreed upon.

If you want a classic Honda, there are several good reasons to go for one. Properly done, they are dependable, economical, rugged, attractive, easy to get worked on, and may even be a lower theft target than a common machine. A nice 67 gets lots of looks, esp with your big shicky on it. It is usually better to buy one already set up from an expat who has to leave town, you can often save some money that way. The dealers will often cut corners, giving you a new paint job but neglecting a lot of the issues that should be addressed. I bought a classic that looked good from one of these guys that had an air filter that was in the final stages of decomposition. So they will do these cosmetic repairs and blatantly disregard an inexpensive repair that can compromise the life of the engine. That is the way these guys are. To have a classic that is really modernized, expect to end up with about a grand in the bike. If you just want transportation, this is not really the best way to go. If you are here long term and your moto is one of your joys in life, then perhaps so.


Most folks will want to skip this next discussion on displacements. One of the huge issues dealing with older Hondas with smaller engines is upgrading displacement. Almost everyone who does this work will tell you they are upgrading a 50 to a 100, but they are lying or do not know the truth. They increase the bore, almost none of them increase the stroke, and so the displacement numbers they quote are overstated. You can put the cylinder from a 100 on a 50, but that makes it about a 70, yet they tell you it is a 100 because the cylinder SAYS 97. Of course, what is actually a 97 is called 100, 47 is called 50, 107 is called 110, just adding to the confusion. This becomes a longer technical discussion, including issues of compression and starting an unbalanced engine with that higher compression, (stroke and bore should be increased together when increasing bore dramatically) so I will skip some of that. It is important to note that they will not change the bottom half of the engine (a newer complete donor engine would have a greater stroke as well as the larger bore) because they know they need to maintain the original bottom half for legal purposes, the VIN is stamped on it and needs to match your papers for the bike. No one explains all this, but most of these upgrades to 100 (97) or 110 (107) are actually upgrades to 67 cc or some other slightly higher number, maybe 78 cc when using a 110 cylinder. Basically, these upgrade numbers are mostly bull, some of these mechanics are so unknowledgeable about what they are doing they may actually believe what they are saying, some of them are lying, almost none of them will tell you the truth. Bottom line, most of these classics with upgraded engines are not advertised properly in terms of displacement. If you as an enthusiast want to get your classic to maximum displacement, it is a very tricky deal, as most of these guys just do not have the ability to stroke, they can bore fine, but then you can become unbalanced and the compression may be so high you cannot kick the engine over and you start breaking things trying.



I buy better classic Hondas, usually pay about $450, then I trick them out the way I like, and will usually have the better part of a grand in the bike to get them upgraded to more modern standards (displacement, auto start, disk brakes, gear indicator, electrical, whatever). It is very hard to find a good mechanic for us. Some can do most of your work, but not all of it. Some can do good work, but try to do work you do not need. Some can tell you that what you want cannot be done while it can be by someone who knows what he is doing. If you like messing with older bikes, it is important to have a good mechanic, especially one that has the time and interest to understand your particular needs. Here, they do not understand that we may WANT something done even though the bike does not specifically NEED the repair or mod to keep running. Lots of mechanics have this problem when relating to us. Luan over on NTMK closed shop, he was one of the better ones, and was the only one I knew who could do a good job with the manual clutch on the 67 series. One of his assistants is in business about one block north of the old shop, not hard to find, he can do the clutch on a 67 properly, and is the only one I know of in HCMC who can at this time, but surely there have to be others out there somewhere. I have a very good mechanic way out in Binh Tan, too far to go for most stuff, but worth it for an overhaul.

The single biggest point of failure on the classic 67 is the manual clutch. This was an excellent system, the problem is VN mechanics do not put the original style springs in the clutch when they repair it. The clutch seems to work fine at first, but then constantly needs adjustment. You can then get it fixed temporarily over and over and over, but constantly have problems unless and until you find someone who understands this model and puts the correct original parts back in the clutch system. It is not expensive, it is just almost impossible to find anyone who understands this. You can get lots of mechanics who will say they can fix it, who will get it going for a while, but then it always seems to lose adjustment. You can get mechanics who will eventually tell you that is as good as it can be fixed. Some guys swap it to an auto out of frustration, which is probably not a bad idea if you drive in the big city most of the time. I noted above the guy who can fix this clutch, I think I have his phone number on file also. I would also state that for anyone who wants to stay with the manual on a 67, you should invest in an electric start, about $80, and a gear indicator, about $40. Both of those upgrades are very important to you. You should also be certain you are getting the correct springs in the clutch, and understand most mechanics will pretend they know what you need while they actually do not.

At this time I have a classic 67 and a classic Cub. Both have upgraded displacements. The 67 has disk brakes on the back, auto start, gear indictor light, and has a larger sprocket on front, which it handles fine with the bigger engine. Both these bikes run good, the power to weight ratio is very favorable on these with the displacement increases. They are both a bit smallish for two people, but can do the job, esp if the person on back is not a westerner. They are fine for one person and really haul ass even with one big westerner on front and a smaller VN on the back. With one person only it is even more impressive how fast these bikes can go, they are considerably lighter than the modern bikes, so with the larger engine it is a real kick in the a$$.

With reference to what is a ripoff here, boy, that is a tough one to quantify. As Dekadan was saying, the VN love to tell you that you paid twice as much as you should have. I have seen that many times, but I know a lot more about the classic Honda than 98% of them and know that they seem to enjoy saying that without even knowing what they are talking about. It does seem like a lot of them get pleasure from thinking or implying that we are stupid. I know getting work done on bikes is a big pain in the butt, and finding a decent mechanic is very important to us, esp if we run a classic. I have a better one but he is way out on the edge of town. I do have the phone number of the guy who can do the clutch properly on a 67, he is in 1, if anyone needs that, he may be a better mechanic overall as well, but am reluctant to give anyone the complete seal of approval. With most of the mechanics it can be very difficult to understand what their agenda is, even when you have a VN helper. One could rant all day about the crazy things that happen when using these guys. Even my best mechanic who I trust cannot do my clutch properly, and told me that it could not be properly repaired at all, that I would never be able to expect it to run normally for long periods. He was dead wrong. I find some mechanics can do good work, but will try to convince you that you need an overhaul when you do not, which seems to me to be the real ripoff. I find lots of them will not fix things properly because they do not know what they are doing on that part of the job and do not want to say they do not know, but still the repair itself may not be expensive. So you are losing your time, which may be your greater expense, not sure if that should be called a ripoff or not.

That�s the latest info I have on motos. Finally got both of mine running very well, mainly because of that guy in BT, I wasted some overhauls with that Brit over in 9 when he subbed them out to someone outside of his shop. Still, he may actually be the only guy who can stroke a classic Honda and get you to maximum displacement, but be sure he does not sub the job out, or you may be wasting your money.

[Dekadan]

Excellent post, MIS, as usual. I expect I'll return to Sai Gon at some point and then I'll go over your post in more detail.

I bought my classic from a different fellow than the two you mentioned. His name is Hiep (full-out Vietnamese, not VK. He speaks English fairly well) and he's located on Tran Van Dang/Hoang Sa in District 3 (it's next to a canal that is affectionately referred to Stinky River or Sh*t Creek for some unknown reason...). He focuses more on vintage Vespas, so if that look suits anyone, you may want to check him out. I don't recall the exact address, when he's open he brings the Vespas out, so it's pretty easy to find. It's on the other side of the canal from the supermarket (Big C?).

While I felt like I paid too much for my bike (A 1968 Honda CL50, and that's ultimately my problem with negotiating), I know others who were satisfied with his service. One good thing about him is that if something goes wrong with the bike that was an original part, he's pretty good about fixing it without charge. I would tip whatever mechanic took care of me and that's it (10,000 usually). I'm sure there's a limit on how long you can keep going back to him, but I never reached it.

I believe I had a Honda 67, though the people I was with referred to it as a Benly. I can definitely back-up that the clutch was a pain when idling, though I prefer using one to the semi-automatic that you find in the Wave. I wish I had known that it was fixable while I was there. So many times I had the bike die on me just when the light was changing to green.

Best of luck to anyone that decides to go with a vintage bike. They're gorgeous, but I never got mine working consistently well.

[mark_in_saigon]

Thought we might get some more notes on motorbikes and driving up. I am not sure if this is the best thread for it, but it has a lot of good info on bikes here. I just posted this a few days ago, about wearing helmets and following the so called rules:

it seems that compliance is falling off now significantly in the big cities, especially Ha Noi. You can watch any major street and see people going by without helmets, maybe every 20th motorbike or so, and they do not look worried about it. Then if you get on the smaller streets that do not normally have police on them, you can see much lower compliance rates. I know of some areas where about half of all motorbikes going by are not wearing them, moreso in Ha Noi than in HCMC. I really get the feeling too that some of the young guys driving are not going to pull over when asked, and I also get the feeling that they are not going to be asked, as the POleece do not want to be embarrassed. I am thinking we are reaching some kind of tipping point on driving,



Just so happens I was on such a street today, where compliance is very low, as we never see the police there. Lo and behold, there were two sets of police hiding, one set signaled the other to jump out and stop two boys on a moto right next to mine. These were not classic hero boys with the light colored hair and total disregard for safety, they were maybe 16 or so just driving along with everyone else, but no helmets. So the police made a big show of whistling, pointing and hollering, they were right next to the boys. The boys just altered their path a bit to get past the magic stick of (in)justice and kept going. So funny. And, about 2 blocks later, they were parked in the street talking to some other boys who were on foot or something, I am guessing they were asking if the road ahead was clear or not, cannot imagine they would not try to get out of the area for a while. Anyway, I am thinking that this may really be going on, these young people without helmets have no intention of stopping. Not sure about the other half of my speculation, which was the POleece were pretending they don't exist, as they do not want to be embarrassed, but in this case, they tried, they failed, and no one I noticed appeared shocked or anything. These were not true hero boys, so maybe that part of my speculation is still correct, yellow hair makes you invisible.

One part of me wants real enforcement, but when you consider the reality of how these guys operate, you do see the point, or pointlessness maybe. One good thing (perhaps), we may be to the point where the disregard for rules will not get much worse, as the only compliance for norms seems to be self induced, I don't think anyone has any great fear of the authorities (at least for driving infractions). I do see normal people pulling over when asked to though, but we all know how that turns out.

[I'm With Stupid]

I know quite a few people who have simply carried on when asked to pull over. Always get away with it. And even if they didn't, all that's likely to happen is that they follow you and pull you over further down the street, and you end up with the same mugging that you would've received in the first place.

[mark_in_saigon]

In answer to a letter asking some details on a problem with a motorbike:

I am not posting much on Dave�s, or anywhere, the other place I used to post some more personal type info, I have asked them to remove my submissions. It is an interesting topic of how we relate to each other here, and the kind of guys that come over. I do find that the nature of the discourse has turned so negative worldwide that it is now better to withdraw from the forums.

On vehicles, I really not that much of an expert. Some of my advanced knowledge is more of this background stuff, like knowing the history of vehicles and certain makes, so I know a lot about the old Hondas (and certain kinds of cars as well), but am not an especially talented mechanic. Both my brothers are, one had a boat dealership and has a very deep understanding of engines and platforms, the other one was not far behind. They were both racers in their days. I put a lot of time into screwing around with my old Hondas, and so I am a bit of an expert in how to relate to the motorbike landscape here. For example, I have learned that the mechanics are pretty much like everyone else here in terms of attitude, professionalism, skill and trustworthiness. Many of them are fairly courteous, some of them are rude. They will almost always act like they know what they are talking about, they never want to admit there is something they do not know about a moto. So they will screw things up, they will tell you something cannot be fixed, whatever. You can even get a better mechanic that you have developed trust with who can in time start to try to fleece you, doing things you don�t need, or giving you used parts or something. So even though a guy may do some stuff well enough, he can still create problems for you.

Basically, you will often be disappointed if you trust these people (though a very few will never cheat you, but it takes a long time to be sure who those are, and even those may just be doing a scam with a longer time frame), even though you do have to use them. I care for the VN, but I understand that the imperatives of their lives and the system they have grown up in has changed most of these people. They are not born this way, and can be quite stellar if put in a proper system. Crazy how you have to have all this contextual perspective in order to understand your business transactions and casual encounters over here. So, having said all that, you never can be sure what they tell you is right. They may not know, they may want to sell you stuff you do not need, they may be reluctant to admit they are stumped, whatever. Just because they say it does not make it true. Bringing your wife or a translator along should help, but not necessarily. Many reasons for that, one of them is some of the guys will be rude to a VN woman with an expat, also some of the men think it is beneath their dignity to let a woman tell them complex details about what they think they know more about than you or the woman know. So it is pot luck working with these guys, even the expensive ones that look more professional. The good thing is the work and the parts are so cheap, plus they get right on it while you wait. So that pretty much overcomes the bad parts, but not always, as they can do very stupid things also that can actually ruin your bike. One example of that is oil change. You pay for a quart (or whatever the bottle is), you need .8 of a quart, but some of them will try to give you what you paid for and turn your bike on its side so it can hold the entire quart. So then if you open to check the oil, oil gushes out unless you have it on its side. Overfilling of oil will cause it to run stupid, and in some cases can ruin the engine. But how you can oversee every little thing these people can do, I don�t know, because we cannot sit there and watch them do everything, and we do not know everything about everything, that is what they are paid for, but of course they do not know, and they do screw things up.


On the modern aspects of bikes, I suppose this stuff must be better in a way, whether it is or not, it cannot be changed to older technology (in most cases). I do think some of the modern bikes here are still the older simpler technology, and so that is what I personally would buy if forced to get something new. It is well known that the Honda Cub is the best motorcycle ever made, and the simplicity is one of the main reasons. Fortunately, Honda still makes the Cub, and some of the less expensive bikes share most of the Cub�s basic design. As a motorbike does not have aircon, windows, a radio and all these creature comforts that turned the car from a relatively simple machine into this very expensive system whose complexity forces it to be disposed of as it ages, we are lucky we can still get this kind of machine. In my mind, these chain driven Hondas (which share the heritage of the Cub) mark a high point of man�s attempt to make machines that are useful and sensible. Having seen the progress of autos from the early days til now, I am quite convinced that the late 60�s was that moment for the American auto industry, the Japanese held on for about another 5 years. The Japanese at that point did not become as ridiculous as the Americans, but they all chased complexity, luxury and the high end of the market. The guy who just wanted a good car that was efficient and inexpensive was the least important customer on the list, and was very poorly served. One could argue that earlier times than the 60�s was actually the golden age, it depends on how you judge the cars. Some of the most memorable styles were certainly earlier. We are quite fortunate that over here we can still get these motorbikes that are almost certainly some of the finest machines every made by man, and they retain their usefulness, dependability and cost efficiency. We can even modify them and add to their performance profiles. And we get the extra benefit of the fact that to the VN, they are low class, so they are discounted. How many Cubs and 67�s have you seen turned into garbage scows? Lots. How many VN girls want to be picked up on a bike that in their minds is used to carry dead pigs to market or whatever, ya know? This also is a useful question in that if a girl WILL be happy on a Cub or a 67, you have a much higher chance that she is a trooper. One of my rules to life here is, if your gf objects to your choice of a motorbike, it is a far better decision to get a different gf than a different motorbike.

Well, seems like the motorbike is so central to our culture here, when we discuss these things, it is not so much about the parts or the models, it is about how these machines affect our lives, what they say about us, how we have to consider the culture and the system in order to just to operate them and get them repaired. I was just thinking of when I was young and used to drive some smaller vehicles, and performance vehicles. I am reminded of that feeling when I am on the right kind of moto here. The bigger and more luxurious it is, the less I feel it. Anyway, the feeling is how with the right moto (or maybe any kind of vehicle), the operator can feel the road, he can control the vehicle in a very intimate way (especially true when shifting gears with a manual transmission), and he can almost feel like he is part of the machine, or the machine is part of him. I think this feeling is one of the great joys in life for these people, or some of them, although I certainly think a lot of the young people abuse it badly. It is okay to enjoy a machine, but to drive it full blast with no thought for the safety of others does bother me, and we see way too much of that here. But it also points out another interesting facet of this culture, which is the freedom we have, especially driving. In the west, we have to be nervous about every little thing we do sometimes. While we have the right to elect our leaders (to whatever extent we have any real power there), I think that in some of the most important parts of our lives we have more freedom here. Not sure if I will ever reconcile this, but it is quite interesting. Certainly we have a lot more regulations to worry about in the west, many of them stifle our lives a lot, or our ability to do business. I remember reading a story about this once, talking about a couple of Iranians who had moved to the states. One said to the other, �imagine the freedom they have to elect their leaders.� The other said, �yes, but in Tehran, we have the freedom to drive down the highway in reverse.� I think day to day �freedoms� may be more often encountered here, or perhaps more intensely felt. I also think they are important to the psyche, these people have so many frustrations and brick walls in their careers, but they damn sure have the freedom to drive full speed down the freeway in reverse or without lights or whatever other way they can dream up. Not that it is always good for the safety of others, but it certainly must be exhilarating, and is probably therapeutic, unless you kill yourself doing it, which is also a solution.

[mark_in_saigon]

On the issue of motorbike repair, I have some news. For one thing, on Craiglist, there are some buyers who are complaining about some of the folks who sell there, especially targeting western buyers. You can still use CL for finding a moto, but just be aware that as the VN learn more about it, some of the scam guys are starting to use it more.

However, on CL I also found out about a western guy who is probably the best mechanic in HCMC for older machines. I think all the serious Vespa guys know who he is, his name is Pat, and he owns a business known as Saigon Scooter Centre. He has a Vespa museum, about a dozen or so bikes, mostly Vespas and Lambrettas. He has a 1952 Lambretta race bike that is just way cool looking, plus other assorted interesting old bikes.

He bills it as the only western owned/operated scooter repair shop in HCMC. He had some old bike (a Mobilette) listed for sale, so I contacted him asking about repair, he was willing to do my 67. He is not cheap like the VN, although it depends on your perspective. Lots of guys in HCMC are selling Cubs and 67’s that they claim to be 100 or 110, which is bull, they just overbore, they do not stroke, the engine is unbalanced and breaks up pretty quickly. He strokes as well as bores and brings your 50cc up to a true 100/110 (actually 97/108 or whatever it is), and he does it right with Japanese parts. So having had the VN lie to me and mess it up a few times (as well as the other fairly well known western guy who said he could do it and then handed it off to a VN guy who messed it up), I had Pat do it for about $325. Yeah, the VN can rebuild over and over for A LOT less, and if you want to stay at 50cc, then they are good enough. If you really care about your moto and want it done properly, and want maximum displacement, this guy does it correctly. He is the only one I would recommend for this particular task, taking a 50 to 100 or 110, the others are probably lying about it, none of the VN seem to understand how to stroke. If anyone knows of someone else who does stroke, do tell. I prefer not to trash talk the other guy, but having really gone through all this over the years here, I do not recommend that guy who specializes in the 67/Cub market for westerners, I have some notes on that experience farther back in this thread.

I will also note, if I had found Pat years ago and spent the $325 the first time, I would have been money ahead. The VN can bore the hell out of it and make it faster, but they mess stuff up when they do it. Pat had to do some machining on the bottom end where the other guys had messed something up causing it to leak oil with no solution. He fixed that, got the clutch better than it has ever been (a huge issue with 67s). The bike starts and idles with no problem now, from cold, cranks right up and runs without fluttering the throttle. It also uses less gas I notice, probably enough to pay for the job in a couple of years running. The VN modifications cause it to be a gas hog. The VN mods last about a year (or less) before needing a rebuild. Only time will truly tell with Pat’s deal, but it is certainly the smoothest it has ever run. I really get the feeling he follows western standards with his work, based on everything I saw. But, you do have to be willing to pay the price for this quality of work, it is probably not for the guys who are nervous about their finances, unless they are thinking long term.

Anyway, I like it so much, I’m taking my Cub (which is running fine) to him and have him do the boost on it too. We aint gonna live forever, might as well have some fun while we can.

[TRH]

I am assuming that you can keep the 50cc paperwork on the Cub. I have a VN license but if the papers say 50cc, it would make a rebuild more attractive to those who don't have a license.

I am also curious if it is still possible to buy a 50cc Cub new. I was told once that you can but you have to special order it. Do you know, Mark?

[mark_in_saigon]

Should have addressed that issue, it is important. I did discuss this back in this thread earlier, but some of my posts are quite long, so unless you are really into this stuff, you would get lost. So, yeah, you are supposed to keep the same engine block, that is the first issue. When buying a bike, check the numbers, if they have swapped engines then you are not really legal. Long discussion here, police NEVER look at that with the foreigner, but reselling the bike then is dicey. The VN almost totally refuse to change an engine as they think that makes them a guilty party. So this is why we do not swap to a newer engine. Swapping is supposed to be legal with the right paperwork, but Pat (SCC owner) said he has never heard of anyone who actually got the authorities to give the approval. Your mileage could vary if you went in as a nice foreigner with extra incentive in your hands, who knows? So, ANYWAY, the cops do not care how big your engine IS, they supposedly just care that the numbers match. Then the issue of not needing a DL is supposedly addressed. Personally, I think we should have that anyway, we do not want to give them a reason to screw with us.

I have a friend who recently bought a very nice 50cc Honda, not a Cub, as she is rather small, it fit her, plus she had never gotten a license (she's VN). Runs good too. On the new Cubs, I know you can get them, but do not see many of them, and was not aware of that issue on the 50cc needing to be a special order. The Honda places could certainly fill us in on that. Just gotta say, I would put my money into an older one, over time, they should be worth more, and the technology has not changed much, the parts are incredibly cheap and available all over VN. But then, the next wildcard is the govt is SUPPOSEDLY going to not allow older bikes on the road in 2018 or some damned thing, you never know with these guys.

[cb400]

Great thread Mark. I've found getting anything done a bike here is a tricky proposition. First off most VN mechanics have absolutely no pride in their work and couldn't care about the finished product. I did find one guy in Hanoi who was a real gear head and lived in Japan for many years so he had that extra attention to detail that we are often looking for. He helped me modify my CB400 and R6 often getting hard to find parts..for a price ...Metzler sports tires ($600 USD a pair) ,performance carbs and VTEC switch for the CB. This guy also would do custom work, paint, sheet metal and cafe racer bars but you needed to give him detailed pictures to copy or use as a guideline.

This same guy built a 67 for a friend, in BRG and with a win 110 engine in it, that little thing could fly are carve up traffic like no ones business. There is an Autralian mechanic in Hanoi who is building a cafe racer 67, with mono shock, under seat exhaust and custom seat pan, should be really cool when finished. You can search for it under 'VIP Bikes Hanoi' on their facebook page. He is also a great mechanic for scooters and waves, running a non-profit organization for street kids. I rent a wave from him and they do a complete service every month and you always get the bike back with a wash and everything adjusted (brakes, tires). A large portion of the expat community uses him, but not the backpackers doing the South-North trip as they are often looking to pinch pennies on their ride.. I guess it is a more authentic VN experience for them Andrew at VIP bikes is not the cheapest, but definitely the best mechanic in town for standard bikes.

[mark_in_saigon]

Thanks for that info. Yeah, do not know much about the HN moto scene. One interesting thing I DO know is that the Hondas were more in the south due to its being aligned with the west, and so you had the Minsks up in the north, the Hondas in the south. I am sure there must have been some movement back and forth, but you sure do not see as many of the old 67's up there. Minsks are pretty rare all over, they just do not seem to be as reliable or maybe there just were not enough of them that we have parts for them, not sure about that. Plus being 2 cycles, you have to accept the smoke, and enjoy the noise. I love the sound a 2 cycle makes, but they do vibrate a bit more as well as they run at higher rpm's. I think things may vibrate loose a more often on a 2 cycle, maybe you have a shorter time between rebuilds also, as they have no oil bath, just the oil that you burn in the gas. Great thing about the small Hondas, you can juice them up at a reasonable price. 600 buck for tires is getting out of my comfort zone, and I am pretty stupid when it comes to spending money on my motos. Yeah, you get 110 or more on that 67, it is so freaking light, the thing is just a lot of fun to drive. We are doing our Cub too, it is actually a "Little Cub", it is probably lighter than the 67.

You can eventually find VN mechanics that work out, but they are like doctors here. They could treat minor stuff, but how many of them do you want cutting you open and modifying your system? Not many. And the problem is, none of them will come out and tell you that they really do not know that much about it, they will pretend that they can do it, when they cannot. Still, we have to use them for minor breakdowns, and even Pat said they are fine for cosmetic stuff, so I am sure he gets them do do all his paint and body work.

By the way, you can also see Pat's Vespa museum on Facebook, or get a feel for it. He needs to have more of a portfolio of pics though, his coolest bike is just hiding in the middle there, it is this 1952 Lambretta race bike, looks like a Vespa, (are they related somehow?), has the race number on it, a race seat, and a velocity stack thingy instead of an air filter. Gawd, it looks like something from another world. Get that on the streets of the U.S., the gearheads there would all wet their pants. Over here, not sure what they would make of it.