Job Discussion Forums

[Lynn]

How would you know if it's mundane if you can't even understand the language? As far as a student taking a long time to answer that he/she is from China, that is no reflection on what he/she talks about in Chinese.

Maybe that student isn't good with languages. Maybe he/she got stage fright. For beginner students it takes a whole week for 3 quesions and 3 answers: Where are you from, What's your name, and How are you. That's right, a whole week. I've never thought of my students as "thick as beep" for not being able to answer a simple question.

You sure sound negative about China. I hope you have found your happiness and left by now.

[dduck]

[Sherri]

Here is a Japanese insight from the Japan Times today:

The indispensable vagueness of 'domo-domo'

By KAORI SHOJI

It's when I'm away from Japan and forced to speak in another language
(in this case English) that I realize just how vague Japanese can get.
At home, it's possible to go through a whole day without uttering one
coherent sentence built on spontaneous thought and logic.

The basic aisatsu (salutations) will get me through, and apart from
that I can trot out meaningless but all-important rejoinders such as
domo and iya, which fits nicely in almost any situation. Instead of
saying, "Thank you, how thoughtful of you to take the time," I can
just bow deeply and proffer a heartfelt domo.

When I'm trying to get out of a social engagement, I can just tilt my
head to one side and say iya with a smile. Believe me, when you're an
antisocial crank, the existence of such rejoinders makes life
infinitely more convenient. Deprived of them, I find myself painfully
aware of my awkwardness and groping for the right things to say.

Americans, on the other hand, have an innate gift for spontaneous
conversation.

The cashier at a Walgreen's, for example, will smile and boom, "Hi,
how are you doing today?" as if he's known you since the age of 6.

This is a bit flustering, especially when you're having a cho daun na
hi (a super down day), as the gals in Shibuya like to say. Of course,
it's always possible to come out with, "Oh, feeling suicidal, which is
why I'm buying razor blades" -- but somehow you know the cashier won't
appreciate that.

Acceptable responses include: "Good!" "Fine!" and "Dandy!" followed
by: "And how are you doing?"

Now comes the interesting part. Eight times out of 10, the cashier
will not match your own boring, monosyllabic reply. Instead, he'll
spring something interesting on you like:

"I went to a wedding yesterday. Fabulous!" Or: "I was at the Red Sox
game. Oh man, that shook me up."

Then he'll send you off with a smiling "Have a nice day!" and do this
to the 25 other people waiting in line.

The Japanese, of course, are far more ritualized. The cashier is
expected to say: "Irrashaimase (Welcome to the establishment)" when
the customer comes in, and "Arigato gozaimashita (Thank you)" when the
customer leaves. In between times, there may be a bit of conversation,
but only if the customer ventures to ask something, or if the
establishment in question is a designer boutique.

If it's just a question of buying paper clips or toilet paper, there's
no need to say anything. This goes for most other social situations.
Japanese society places so much emphasis on functionality that if a
person is fulfilling a specific function, he/she is not required to be
expressive. Reticence is not only acceptable, it's a virtue.

In certain social situations, silence indicates an advanced degree of
intimacy.

At a company nomikai (drinking party) for example, the less
conversation there is between, say, the cute guy in the sales section
and the new temp in accounting, the more distinct the possibility that
love is about to bloom. The new temp will be sitting near, but not
close to the guy, and she will be leaning forward a little to pour his
beer. The little ritual of oshaku (pouring a drink for the other
person) is a way of expressing respect, or affection, and when a woman
does this for a man, no words are necessary to convey how she feels.

And how does the man behave? He'll accept her oshaku with a small bow
and a "domo." Or even a "domo-domo." If he doesn't want to reciprocate
her feelings, the way to say so without hurting her is to accept the
drink, but put a iya before the action. It could even be a "iya,
domo-domo." This essentially means thanks, but no thanks -- without
the sting. The difference between the "yes" and "no" replies, though
seemingly so slight, is in fact monumental.

The language is rife with other examples of subtle vagaries -- the
Japanese, so bent on being precise about shades of color or the
different textures of rain, recede into aimai-sa (vagueness) when it
comes to even the simplest forms of self-expression.

As for self-expression in a foreign language, well domo-domo, but we'd
rather not think about it. Better to just pull out the jyapanezu
sumairu (Japanese smile) -- our own, self-deprecating term to describe
our embarrassing shyness. Smile vaguely, then look off to into the
distance. The question is: How will this go over with the cashier at
Walgreen's?

The Japan Times: Nov. 13, 2003

[Lynn]

Nice article! I'm an American, born and raised. I find;however, that such small talk like the one with the cashier can be difficult. Maybe this is another reason why I feel so comfortable in Japan.

[AsiaTraveller]

I suggest to Marco that if he says (or even thinks) phrases such as "See flend. so velly happy," then he deserves students who don't respond very much in classroom situations.

Hard to believe that an EFL teacher would ever think to write "See flend. so velly happy" on this discussion forum.

Marco might respond that he would never ridicule a student like that. But the very fact that he would write such an example indicates that his students might have very good reasons for being reticent in his presence.

Attitudes (even when we try to keep them hidden) have a way of manifesting themselves so that others can easily perceive them.

[The Great Wall of Whiner]

It was rather hard for me to assertain most of the time what Koreans "normally" talk about because every time they saw me, I became the topic of conversation.

Korean One (K1) "Look! There is an American!"

Korean Two (K2) "Ah! Looks like a soldier."

K1 "He's too short to be a soldier."

K2 "Probably came here to teach English, the f'n SOB."

K1 "yeah. Take our girls and take our money from our economy."

Then they usually try to out-do each other on what they know about foreigners in general and Americans in particular.

K1 "Americans are over-sexed lazy *beep*."

K2 "We don't need those types in our country."

K1 "My friend had an American English teacher, and all he talked about was girls and sex."

K2 "Perverts. All of them. I wish the American army would leave our motherland."


IF they don't see me:

K1 "I was at this one brothel, and the girl wouldn't turn around, so I gave her a slap to the face very hard. I told her that I was the customer and she had to do what I said or she won't see any money from me!"

K2 "Stupid crazy b@@@@ deserved it from the sounds of it"



Foreigners talk about sex day in and day out? Hmmm.... it's not a "foreign" thing, it's a MAN thing.

Koreans tend to be the biggest frigg'n complainers in the world. There is nothing they won't complain about. You could hand them a million bucks and they would still complain you didn't bow when you gave it to them.


As for Japanese, depends on the gender, age, social status, etc. of the people talking.

School girls are the most fun to listen to because they mostly talk about things their parents would never approve of.

[wu]

I just finished a contract in China teaching oral English to high school students. The classes were big (50-60 students) and short (40 minutes) and I taught 5 different classes each morning. It was often boring and frustrating but I think I did make a difference in their English. My goal was to get them comfortable with giving an opinion. I would write a question on the board and have each student, one by one, give me an answer. After the student answered the question I would give him/her something to read and to comment on with a partner or in a small group while I talked to everyone else. By the end of the school year 90% of my students were able to give me an answer in a short period of time - even the students with minimal English were still able to say something. I found my students quite thoughtful. Many approached me after class to ask my opinion on topics like gay marriage, human rights, drugs in sports, etc - more than just asking me if I like Chinese food or not. I had 1700 students to teach this year (I will never teach that many students again - the headmaster neglected to mention how many students I would have while I was signing my contract - I signed for teaching hours) and each student had to say something to me every class. It is a really tedious way of teaching - having to listen to so many students and to talk so much - but I think I did help them.

[Ananda]

"And in the UK "Asian" means someone from Pakistan or India."

No, no. In the Uk Pakistanis and Indians are all referred to as "Pakis"

All of you in the UK know this is true!!

[blue jay]

[jibbs]

I think the point has already been made but if you are thinking they don't say much interesting or expansive it may be because of their limited English and embarrassment. I think the cultures are similar in the saving face desire and Confucian thing. Vietnam seems similar too. Different in many ways, but similar when speaking English unless the east Asian is good at English and has confidence.

Maybe the European or S American countries just aren't so troubled with being imperfect at English. Perhaps it just comes down to culture.

[herman]

I've never taught East Asians but I am Chinese American and have lived in Hong Kong as well. Hong Kong people (like most East Asians I guess) are reluctant to display personal feelings and opinions in public, especially if "public" is a bunch of people they don't know -- which is you the teacher and their classmates. They are also generally afraid of embarassing themselves in front of other people. But once people start knowing each other and feel comfortable being with each other, their tongues will start to loosen. I think you are aware of all this, so my suggestion first is just to break this thick ice.

If the ice is between you and the students, it could be your attitude is in question. Just understanding and willing to accept that you might take minutes to get an answer from a student makes all the difference. If you show any annoyance ('oh my god will they ever open their mouths') the students can feel it. I'm not suggesting that's what you do or think but this may be a point to consider; students notice every little thing you do, especially if you're a foreigner! Getting students out of their shells can take weeks, but it's not impossible. You have to have the patience as well as insistence. After all you are the teacher.

As for ice among the students themselves, have you tried pairing off or group activities where students get time to interact among themselves, or even just some activities that will help students know each other? It's important to have some time where the teacher "is not there." Since your students are adults, I gather they have no other socializing time other than in the classroom. If they don't even feel comfortable among themselves, how will they feel comfortable talking to you in the presence of their classmates who are complete strangers?

I'm not sure I answered your question or helped you at all, but I'll try to answer any further question if you have them, to my best ability.

[herman]

Marco, what kinds of questions and topics have you asked/given to your students? Just to give us an idea what is not working. (Also, how large are your classes?)

Sherri has a good point. Choose topics that they are familiar with and make sure they have the vocabulary to talk about them. Sherri has basically and excellently listed the steps to a good method of making a group discussion.

Also, what kind of adults are you teaching? Are they well-educated? Are they businessmen? If you know their background you can find your topics and questions from there. If they are reasonably well-informed or educated about contemporary issues you can ask them about Hong Kong and Hong Kong-China politics. Best if you can pick up issues current in the newspapers and TV news. Generally, Hong Kongers also travel quite a lot - and a lot of conversation can come out of that, too. You just have to pull their teeth if they don't submit. Otherwise, like someone said already on this link, force them to take up a position, divide the class into two (pro and con), make both groups develop their strategy and arguments before the discussion actually begins. Also, although they are adults, "fun" and silly questions like "What is your dream house/job?" can pique their interest. At least you can use this as a warm-up, or "emboss" the question into a "more sophisticated" one if these are "sophisticated" adults... The bottom line is ask questions that appropriate to your students' background, questions they can actually, readily, or willingly answer -- and that will require learning about them and thinking in their shoes.

And, do you have a colleague (or friend) who is a local HKer? Ask him or her.

[S6218]

Marco,
From what I gather from your posts, it seems as though you may have the format and ideas to teach but perhaps you lack the ability to connect with the students. Teachers in general have this challenge. Some have a natural way of opening people up and getting them into the groove. The "muppet" approach doesn't work well if you're dealing with humans so lighten yourself up, do some soul searching and you aura will shed positiveness to your students. You may want to think twice about teaching....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[S6218]

Freaky deaky, perhaps it's not a language issue but merely the fact that they just really don't want to associate with YOU.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[The Franchise]

Alright, let me break it down for you people. White folks talk about golf and the stock market , Blacks talk about fried chicken and basketball, and Asians talk about communism and fried rice. Got it? Good.

Seriously though, you might belong on the short yellow bus (for non-Americans, that's the school bus for retarded children) if all you can do is make generalizations about the way people talk in different countries. I'll tell you what Asians talk about...anything and everything under the sun. Just because you don't hear it doesn't mean it's not discussed. They just don't want to discuss it with your monkey ass.