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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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 Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, but I have always been of the opinion that if one accepts a job in a culture that is different from one's own, one should show respect by sincerely attempting NOT to offend. This is not an insistence that all women throw on an abaya and veil. It is easy enough to use common sense and dress conservatively. Personally I feel that any woman of any nationality that is in public in any Middle Eastern Muslim culture should be mature enough to cover up. By that I mean long skirts, or tunic tops with trousers, and obviously no mini skirts, short shorts, and sleeveless tops. 
This arrogant attitude that they have some "right" to dress as they want is an embarrassment. And it increases the amount of harassment that all Western women get because of that attitude. I have also noticed that the women who complain the loudest about men bothering them on the streets are the ones that dress the most like a hooker. If they wish to dress in this style, they should stay in their own country.
VS |
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bulgogiboy
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 803
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
Sorry, but I have always been of the opinion that if one accepts a job in a culture that is different from one's own, one should show respect by sincerely attempting NOT to offend. This is not an insistence that all women throw on an abaya and veil. It is easy enough to use common sense and dress conservatively. Personally I feel that any woman of any nationality that is in public in any Middle Eastern Muslim culture should be mature enough to cover up. By that I mean long skirts, or tunic tops with trousers, and obviously no mini skirts, short shorts, and sleeveless tops.
This arrogant attitude that they have some "right" to dress as they want is an embarrassment. And it increases the amount of harassment that all Western women get because of that attitude. I have also noticed that the women who complain the loudest about men bothering them on the streets are the ones that dress the most like a hooker. If they wish to dress in this style, they should stay in their own country.
VS |
I disagree. In the US/Europe, the hijab/Abaya (with or without the veil) makes a lot of the non-Muslim populace, both men and women, take offence. This is evidenced to some extent by the bhurka bans in France and Belgium (which, by the way, I do NOT agree with). Rightly or wrongly, it's often seen as clothing which represents the subjegation of women, just as conservatives in Qatar would argue wearing mini-skirts causes the exploitation/degredation of women. Would you apply the same standard to Qatari women taking jobs in Europe or the US? As you say, I'm also not talking about them walking about in a bikini, but removing the offensive garb, which makes others around them feel so uncomfortable, and replacing it with everyday western-style clothing, so as to make others feel more at ease. Or does the unyielding attitude of bhurka-wearing immigrants in Europe, to their "right" to wear offensive clothing, not count as equally "arrogant", because they claim "religious obligation" (when in fact, in many instances it is a cultural/societal/familial expectation)?
Also, does no blame fall on these men who are harrassing women? Is there no expectation of self-control? My girlfriend makes a point of dressing modestly when she goes out, in accordance with her particular culture, and surprise surprise, whenever we go to shopping malls she gets constant sleazy looks from men. Is this her fault? The mindset here appears to be such that women are looked upon as sex objects regardless of how they dress.
I reiterate my statement that Qatar either has to show tolerance for the different cultures and lifestyles that make this country what it is, or it risks becoming some kind of despised pariah society, like Saudi, where foreign people only go for short-term gain, get out as soon as they have reached their financial goals, and hide themselves away in western compounds whilst doing so. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Dear bulgigoboy,
I guess it all depends on what a society's "values" are (e.g. individual freedom versus religious conformity.)
At any rate, it's that society's choice, and I suspect they are aware of the "consequences" you mentioned. But when an outsider is in that society, he/she, I'd say, needs to abide by their laws and customs - or risk the consequences.
Regards,
John |
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bulgogiboy
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 803
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear bulgigoboy,
I guess it all depends on what a society's "values" are (e.g. individual freedom versus religious conformity.)
At any rate, it's that society's choice, and I suspect they are aware of the "consequences" you mentioned. But when an outsider is in that society, he/she, I'd say, needs to abide by their laws and customs - or risk the consequences.
Regards,
John |
Then I would pose the same question to you as I did to VS, which is: Should the standard be applied the other way round? |
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MotherF
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1450
Location: 17�48'N 97�46'W
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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I have heard stories of Arab women being forced to remove their viels when visiting other countries that value facial identification.
I've never visited the Arab world but if I were to do so I would try to find a happy medium--as a young white girl in Latin America I found I was more comfortable it I wasn't drawing undo attention to myself with my attire. I imagine that western women in the Arab world would find that even more so.
(And stuggling to manage my hair in our current swings of differences in humidity in Mexico, I thought to myself that simply keeping one's hair covered all the times must have certain advantages!) |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Dear bulgogiboy,
Vice-versa doesn't work - for the same reasons I mentioned: different societal values.
In "Western society" (warning: broad generalization ahead, ) qualities such as the previously-mentioned individual freedom, tolerance, fairness, etc. are part of the fabric (or, at least, given lip service.") Therefore, according to our "values," we ought to respect, for example, a woman's right to wear, say, a burka.
In Qatar/Saudi society, there's no such "versa." So, anyone gong there needs to know that and not complain because they're not big on individual freedom, tolerance, fairness, etc.
That's just the way it is.
Regards,
John |
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bulgogiboy
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 803
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear bulgogiboy,
Vice-versa doesn't work - for the same reasons I mentioned: different societal values.
In "Western society" (warning: broad generalization ahead, ) qualities such as the previously-mentioned individual freedom, tolerance, fairness, etc. are part of the fabric (or, at least, given lip service.") Therefore, according to our "values," we ought to respect, for example, a woman's right to wear, say, a burka.
In Qatar/Saudi society, there's no such "versa." So, anyone gong there needs to know that and not complain because they're not big on individual freedom, tolerance, fairness, etc.
That's just the way it is.
Regards,
John |
I know they have different values, and I respect (at least in terms of 'paying my dues') their values. I also believe we should respect womens' right to wear a bhurka, or not, should they visit 'free' ( a relative term these days I'll concede) western countries. What I'm getting at is the hypocrasy of whiners in places like Qatar who hold a double-standard when it comes to "cultural sensitivity". I agree with you, that is just the way it is, absolutely, but it doesn't mean I have to like it, does it?  And, from speaking to my Qatari students, I think a lot of them are actually in admiration of the individual freedom western people enjoy, and Qataris frequently visit places like London so they can enjoy this freedom, but they still hold onto the "not in my backyard" mentality, when it comes to their "pure" Islamic society, the hypocrasy of which annoys me. |
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bulgogiboy
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 803
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| MotherF wrote: |
I have heard stories of Arab women being forced to remove their viels when visiting other countries that value facial identification.
I've never visited the Arab world but if I were to do so I would try to find a happy medium--as a young white girl in Latin America I found I was more comfortable it I wasn't drawing undo attention to myself with my attire. I imagine that western women in the Arab world would find that even more so.
(And stuggling to manage my hair in our current swings of differences in humidity in Mexico, I thought to myself that simply keeping one's hair covered all the times must have certain advantages!) |
That would be France and Belgium. I am fervently against this type of regulation, if it's merely in the street/park/cafes/libraries/etc but, for security purposes, where a bhurka could provide a perfect, albeit hilarious, disguise for, say, a bank robber, veils should not be allowed. |
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