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ZennoSaji
Joined: 02 Feb 2010
Posts: 87
Location: Mito, Ibaraki
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 Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| OneJoelFifty wrote: |
| How about "at lunchtime"? It refers to the period of time during which you had lunch. Or it might refer to a set time, say 1pm-2pm. Much like the weekend refers to the time from Friday evening to Sunday night. |
http://www.englisch-hilfen.de/en/grammar/preposition_time.htm
Based on what I'm being told here, I'd put "on the weekend", just like I put "on Friday" and not "at Friday". In your example's vein, I'd say "at the weekend time". |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| 'On a break'. 'At recess'. Surely these mean the same thing? Are they being conceptualised differently in American English? |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| OneJoelFifty wrote: |
| It refers to the period of time during which you had lunch. |
Precisely. You identify time. Time makes the period whole, conceptually. Much like the aforementioned Christmastime, which I have heard in songs and old movies. Another poster said they actually use "at Christmastime." I've always used "over the Christmas holidays." And over and on each have their own collocation issues...
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| Or it might refer to a set time, say 1pm-2pm. Much like the weekend refers to the time from Friday evening to Sunday night. |
I disagree. When you identify 1pm and 2pm, they are conceptually two different periods of time.
In order to do the same thing with weekend, it seems to me you would have to say "at the week's end" or "at the end of the week."
But this is all immaterial. It just shows that the previous claim by multiple people, myself included, that multiple Englishes exist, and in fact, our grammars may not agree. I presume the only reason why we haven't had more divergence is because of mass media.
If all of the English speaking countries were cut off from each other, and a significant amount of recorded audio was destroyed, it wouldn't take long at all for both grammar and vocabulary to diverge to such an extent that we would no longer be able to understand each other--even if we think we recognise all of the words used. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:43 am Post subject: |
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I'd argue that lots of prepositional collocations are, at bottom, arbitrary. If not arbitrary, what is the difference in conceptualisation between the following time expressions?
'In the evening'
'At night'
'In the morning'
'During the day'
'In the afternoon'
Last edited by Sashadroogie on Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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OneJoelFifty
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| ZennoSaji wrote: |
| OneJoelFifty wrote: |
| How about "at lunchtime"? It refers to the period of time during which you had lunch. Or it might refer to a set time, say 1pm-2pm. Much like the weekend refers to the time from Friday evening to Sunday night. |
http://www.englisch-hilfen.de/en/grammar/preposition_time.htm
Based on what I'm being told here, I'd put "on the weekend", just like I put "on Friday" and not "at Friday". In your example's vein, I'd say "at the weekend time". |
You're going to use a German website to tell you how to speak English? ;>
Maybe it's an Englishism. I've always said at the weekend, at Christmas, at Easter. |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| 'On a break'. 'At recess'. Surely these mean the same thing? Are they being conceptualised differently in American English? |
I would say they are, but trying to articulate why is difficult for me. Outside of a legal sense or parliamentary sense, "at recess" usually means "the children are outside in the yard."
In legal terminology, it is a break in proceedings, and one I personally think sounds funny. "The court is at recess." No, they aren't! They have recessed, or they have called a recess. Or the court is recessed until 1:45PM. I just chalk it up to a lot of legal terminology sounding silly, stuffy, and archaic. |
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OneJoelFifty
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Kionon wrote: |
In order to do the same thing with weekend, it seems to me you would have to say "at the week's end" or "at the end of the week." |
But if that period of time, ie. the weekend, has come to symbolise the end of the working week, surely it doesn't need to be referred to as such. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| But in a school they mean the same thing... |
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ZennoSaji
Joined: 02 Feb 2010
Posts: 87
Location: Mito, Ibaraki
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| OneJoelFifty wrote: |
You're going to use a German website to tell you how to speak English? ;>
Maybe it's an Englishism. I've always said at the weekend, at Christmas, at Easter. |
All nationalist rivalries aside, it's a German website with a British flag, suggesting it used British standards.
*edit* Whoops. Just noticed the other half being an American flag, too. >_> |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| OneJoelFifty wrote: |
| But if that period of time, ie. the weekend, has come to symbolise the end of the working week, surely it doesn't need to be referred to as such. |
Conceptually, that isn't the case. American understanding of collocation doesn't allow it. In this case, given what I learned in undergraduate about English as a global language, I would argue that this collocation difference is an actual grammatical difference. We're not arguing here over what is properly grammatical, because we actually have two different grammars. Collocation is a function of grammar, and our collocations do not agree.
As far as "at recess" being the same for schools... I believe that used to be true in the American conceptualisation, but ask any American school child about "at recess" and they will give you a place, not a time. Even if you ask them "when were you at recess," they will still understand "recess" as being a physical location, but they will give you the time they spent outside in the yard. It won't be years later until they will learn the verb "to recess" and then understand that "recess" refers to an interval between other time periods. This is why many small children think recess is a class, a class taken outside. I don't think Americans ever lose this concept of recess. It's too ingrained in our formative years. Making the legalistic terminology sound odd. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry to be flippant here, but your argument is that because the average American young child misunderstands the meaning the term 'recess', this changes the conceptualisation of the whole phrases 'at recess', thus providing a logical defence for 'on the weekend' - is that it? Sounds like a tortured rationalisation to me. I'll stick to a very high degree of arbitrariness in collocation - just as in phrasal verbs. |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Sorry to be flippant here, but your argument is that because the average American young child misunderstands the meaning the term 'recess', this changes the conceptualisation of the whole phrases 'at recess', thus providing a logical defence for 'on the weekend' - is that it? Sounds like a tortured rationalisation to me. I'll stick to a very high degree of arbitrariness in collocation - just as in phrasal verbs. |
I'm saying this is language evolution at work, that's all. This is precisely how connotations change over time.
Your flippancy is amusing, no offense taken. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Connotations are one thing, but collocations are another. Surely you are not defending your construct by saying that American English grammar is based on a childish 'misunderstanding'? (If so, that sentiment could be taken right out of the mouth of a large body of British teachers....) |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Connotations are one thing, but collocations are another. Surely you are not defending your construct by saying that American English grammar is based on a childish 'misunderstanding'? (If so, that sentiment could be taken right out of the mouth of a large body of British teachers....) |
In this particular case of "at recess," I am. Not for the entire discourse. And it isn't a misunderstanding for the people involved in communication. That's my whole point. "At the weekend" isn't wrong period, but it is wrong for me and other Standard American English speakers.
You want to start talking about the validity of various grammars? Let's talk about the validity of African American Vernacular English. I'm of the camp that states AAVE is a distinct, unique, and valid grammar. It's internally consistent, and speakers understand the conceptualisations utilised in ways very much opposed to Standard American English. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| And it isn't a misunderstanding for the people involved in communication. That's my whole point. "At the weekend" isn't wrong period, but it is wrong for me and other Standard American English speakers. |
I strongly disagree. It's not wrong at all in any way. It's a different Standard English.
I am a Standard American English speaker who has worked with mostly British colleagues for years. I am not 'wrong' when I use British phraseology or terminology. I am simply using the prevalent lingo for the situation. |
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