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understanding the kanto area communication flakiness/indiff
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stumptowny



Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:18 am    Post subject: understanding the kanto area communication flakiness/indiff Reply with quote

trying hard not to generalize to other parts of japan as I've only lived in the kanto area so I will not.

so what gives?! been here over a year and have confirmed the terrible communication exhibited by kanto based japanese people. by communication I mean messaging, making plans, corresponding via messaging/email. I've confirmed this with countless people, both gaijin and japanese. what is the truth behind the gamut of torrid communication, ranging from never hearing again from someone to the week delayed "been busy" response to the 3 - 5 hour delayed response?

I know they are busy people (reportedly) but a message takes 20 seconds to send. maybe 15 seconds for the short one sentence messages that are usually sent. so no one in their right mind buys the 'I'm busy' cop out. it's just not time consuming like meeting in person. I�m busy = poor communication straight up.

doesn't matter what you say, where you met, if you communicate in English or Japanese, how much interest was shown previously, if you've made plans to meet, how slow/fast you go, even if you have already met and it went great. it is as if nothing really matters. looks/status don�t even matter. they really have no loser radar here, hence some really astounding mismatches. I've even tried to reciprocate the same behavior. that goes no where of course. like ignoring a brick wall, then expecting it to chase after you.

I am curious to hear about your experience. really looking for the light in a dark, long tunnel to make my experience better. I refuse to join the flakiness fray but I am clearly in it already.

I have met many good communicators by western standards... people who get it. who even initiate contact, show interest and, heaven forbid, might offer an alternative plan/time to meet after the obligatory, I�m sorry� I�m busy. unfortunately, 90 - 95% are just really poor communicators by standards back home. They don�t get any of it really. on my bad days I just think they are self-centered yuppie snobs, which anyone back home would be quick to point out, but I am truly wanting to understand what it is to better my experience while I am here.

I should clarify, I don't frequent bars or gaijin haunts. no Hub hoochie momma types, roppongi girls or free english lesson friends. I am talking normal everyday folk, off the gaijin grid. that is my bad for not going where many gaijin have been before.

are other japanese areas markedly different with this type of communication? women communicating normally, making plans and achieving conversation closure then executing? like back home. again, I�m talking normal everyday people. or is it just horrendous in kanto? have any of you noticed a huge difference in Japanese regions regarding this?

I know about the osaka genki, tokyo big city mentality/indifference, in group/out group effect, extreme ethnocentric thinking, soul-less politeness robots and many other common explanations so looking for some different twists...
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OneJoelFifty



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 463

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has always interested me too actually. I'm not just talking about chasing girls either.

What I find strange is that people do seem to want to keep in touch, but just seem unable. If I message someone once or twice and they don't get in touch, or after a long wait they tell me that they're busy, then I can take a hint. But then those same people will email me a few weeks later. I don't get it.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Long gaps in communication between Japanese are common, even with very close friends. Many do not communicate other than with New Year's cards.

Get used to it, is all I can say.

If you are trying to establish an intimate relationship, it can be difficult, but perhaps things are different if the other person has an immediate attraction. I don't know. Never had that problem with my wife (the gap, that is).
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mitsui



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1562
Location: Kawasaki

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Japan is basically split in two.
There is eastern Japan, and there is western Japan.
Spend some time in Osaka, and learn the dialect and you will see differences.
In Osaka people actually strike up conversations with strangers on the train or in the public bath.

Tokyo is a big city, and being lonely is not surprising. I have worked in Tokyo for 11 years and I don't currently have a Japanese friend.
Tokyo is all about work and money.
People live far away and commute to work. Work is their focus.

My wife thinks that the suburbs suck, and the shitamachi places are better.
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nightsintodreams



Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 558

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Japan is basically split in two.
There is eastern Japan, and there is western Japan.
Spend some time in Osaka, and learn the dialect and you will see differences.
In Osaka people actually strike up conversations with strangers on the train or in the public bath.


Yes, precisely. My friends who can't speak Japanese don't understand why I would choose to go there over Tokyo, but this is the exact reason I'm determined to move to Kansai at the end of my next contract.

The first time I went to Osaka, I remember seeing some strangers in a cafe shop just burst into conversation. It really shocked me.

Do you think the whole of Kansai is like this or just Osaka and Kobe?
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mitsui



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1562
Location: Kawasaki

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure. I think in Osaka more so, but I have met people from other parts like Kobe and Shiga, and they were friendly. I think Kyoto people can be different. Some are friendly but some are really stuck up.

Good luck getting decent work in Kansai. It isn't easy these days.

My spouse is from Osaka and she had culture shock just getting used to living here and learning the Tokyo dialect.
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Kionon



Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's Kansai as a whole. I'm a "westie." I don't like Tokyo. It's too big for me, too busy for me. I can only stand to stay there for two weeks. If I actually got a position in Tokyo, I would probably adapt, but it would be difficult. I don't like New York, either. I do like Chicago, but only if I can commute out to Northwest suburbs at the end of the day. I don't actually like suburbs either, but I prefer to sleep there. In my case, cities are for visiting, not for living.

And even in Kansai, I prefer rural Japan. In rural Japan, I eventually lose most, if not all, of the microagressions we're talking about in other threads. Being one of only 20 foreigners in a small city/town is actually an advantage because once everyone has asked all of the questions, and once everyone knows you speak Japanese, people stop caring, and you stop hearing about it.

That being said, I definitely find Osaka and Kyoto proper to be way more friendly and way less tatemae vs honne than Tokyo, and this means a lot less of those microaggressions as well.

I will always be about Kyoto.
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rxk22



Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nightsintodreams wrote:
Quote:
Japan is basically split in two.
There is eastern Japan, and there is western Japan.
Spend some time in Osaka, and learn the dialect and you will see differences.
In Osaka people actually strike up conversations with strangers on the train or in the public bath.


Yes, precisely. My friends who can't speak Japanese don't understand why I would choose to go there over Tokyo, but this is the exact reason I'm determined to move to Kansai at the end of my next contract.

The first time I went to Osaka, I remember seeing some strangers in a cafe shop just burst into conversation. It really shocked me.

Do you think the whole of Kansai is like this or just Osaka and Kobe?


I hate Kanto SO much. People here are just shells. Not a lot of personality, nor do they talk about much of anything at all.

While when I was in Kansai, people seemed actually human. They also had time to occasionally do things.
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stumptowny



Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for your observations everyone. it is great, once again, to confirm what I already know. to touch on a couple things written...

regarding east vs. west japan behavior and treatment, a friend of mine, from wakayama, works at the park hyatt tokyo. they are always harking on her about her kansai ben and such. mostly because tokyo speak is more formal in business but she also explained the bias of dialect as well.

we all know about the kansai genki shown in behavior, like spontaneous talking at a cafe between two strangers as was mentioned by one of you. In osaka I was spoken to randomly on the platform during my first visit there by an attractive female. in kyoto, I was getting eye contact! go figure. yes, people were looking at my eyes and holding my gaze, mostly attractive females. and this was a tired, nasty version of me, after 10 hours of slow trains to get there. I was astounded because in my area of tokyo, I am invisible. I�m literally the only gaijan I see on most days and it is a very busy transit hub with two major train lines stopping there. thousands of japanese commuters daily walk past me, never looking at me. it is just so odd. I am tall, blue eyed, and handsome so just for looking different you'd think more people would sometimes accidentally look up at me... it�s like a memo went out that said ignore this person.

when I went to fukuoka I was straight getting checked out, by everyone. smiled at and beckoned to conversation from strangers. it was great. I was like, wow. this is crazy. I met a suisse at a starbucks there who had lived in kyushu for 20 years and swore he would never go to kanto unless required for business and even then, only for the minimal necessary time. I literally left 2 days later, cutting my fukuoka visit short, to return to tokyo to start immediately looking for work to relocate there but no dice. granted I have not lived in fukuoka, Kyoto, or osaka so I really can�t speak with confidence about the differences but I am pretty damn sure western japan is much better from my brief forays.

I am from the west coast of the USA so perhaps it is similar to living in western japan, making my fit exceedingly difficult in kanto. I dont like nyc either. its like tokyo but dirtier, louder, and rude. if you speak with a japanese about wanting to go to america, they will usually say they really want to see nyc (because it will be like their sex and city dvd's or something) and I'm like, you are gonna fly 5 more hours across the USA for a crowded, dirty city to go shopping when you could be in LA, SD, and the bay area with mountains, oceans, and deserts... I usually just say, oh really? thinking, clueless!

the leading tip of my spear of complaints remains the communication woes I described in the first post, as they form the initiation of many potentially better things to come. it is the roadblock for everything (unless I am solo) so it is the most pressing issue. I can deal with people ignoring me but when I meet someone and go through the poor communication stages that follow, it just kills me. and it gets so old. there are good communicators here, you have to work your butt off to find them. there are not many. I can also deal with the lack of conversation topics. expecting political, business, travel, and history are out of the question. culture and fashion, I�m a dood! the conversation bar remains low. Not because of what they know but because what they decide not to share, which is nearly everything. they usually don�t bring much if anything in the way of conversation. again, I can live with that because I get that from my friends anyhow.

on really good days, when I am patient, I will explain what communication I am used to in the USA to the clueless kanto person, dumbing down the normal steps, providing training wheels. the response has been good though. usually they perk up and get the nudge. but this will kill you to clue in each person. these people live on their phones in kanto.. on the trains it�s all they do. and they can�t manage to get back to you. Indifference is giving them the benefit of the doubt. it�s more cognizant. it�s flaky.

sadly, i have gotten used to it. like over my time here I have become more and more complacent about accepting things as they. there is no choice. there is just no way to change things. I have my rough patches but have gotten much better about not trying to make kanto something it is not. from what I can tell, it is completely out of my control and that is difficult to accept when you are used to normal communication patterns. it is just luck of the draw in meeting someone who knows how to communicate.

just occurred to me, I never pay for dates or offer to meet in nice places or go to dinner. could this be the silver bullet? just see that as: now they are poor communicators who are getting a meal ticket. don�t see that changing anyone or an entire region.

still, and why I have written this, is to see if anything has worked for anyone else to bust open the poor communication patterns covering kanto. has anything worked for you besides leaving?
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jmatt



Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that in Tokyo, there is a big difference between the east and west sides of the city in some ways. Naturally, throughout the city there are people from all over Japan who've moved there for work or other reasons, but in the more trendy and "desirable" western areas of the city the vibe is way different from the shitamachi areas in the east. In the more working-class, cheaper, and down to earth shitamachi areas in the east people are more open and friendly---at least in my experience.
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stumptowny



Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmatt wrote:
I think that in Tokyo, there is a big difference between the east and west sides of the city in some ways. Naturally, throughout the city there are people from all over Japan who've moved there for work or other reasons, but in the more trendy and "desirable" western areas of the city the vibe is way different from the shitamachi areas in the east. In the more working-class, cheaper, and down to earth shitamachi areas in the east people are more open and friendly---at least in my experience.


are you talking about messaging, texting, and email communications? or general vibe of friendliness in-person?

I have met lots of people that are nice in person in kanto, dated many to, and they are terrible communicators... the type of communication in regards to this thread's topic. face value (politeness) vs. flakiness (actions speaking for themselves)

my area of western tokyo / kanagawa is not like the shitamachi areas in the east.. in either sense. absolutely not. flaky with correspondence and not open or friendly in person...
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jmatt



Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stumptowny wrote:
jmatt wrote:
I think that in Tokyo, there is a big difference between the east and west sides of the city in some ways. Naturally, throughout the city there are people from all over Japan who've moved there for work or other reasons, but in the more trendy and "desirable" western areas of the city the vibe is way different from the shitamachi areas in the east. In the more working-class, cheaper, and down to earth shitamachi areas in the east people are more open and friendly---at least in my experience.


are you talking about messaging, texting, and email communications? or general vibe of friendliness in-person?

I have met lots of people that are nice in person in kanto, dated many to, and they are terrible communicators... the type of communication in regards to this thread's topic. face value (politeness) vs. flakiness (actions speaking for themselves)

my area of western tokyo / kanagawa is not like the shitamachi areas in the east.. in either sense. absolutely not. flaky with correspondence and not open or friendly in person...


Just the people in general. Where do you live in Tokyo---or Kanagawa? I lived in Kanagawa for a year and even within that prefecture found differences. I thought that the vibe and the people along the Tokaido line (especially Fujisawa, where I spent the most time---but Chigasaki too) were pretty friendly, but then I lived in Yamato city and absolutely hated it. But then, there are lots of military in Kanagawa---at the bases as well as ex-military guys, and maybe that had something to do with it---that's the vibe I got in Yamato for sure.
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Tsian



Joined: 10 Jan 2012
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think communication flow is different sure -- but I don't think it is rudeness that leads to people not responding.

I think often people are genuinely busy and forget about a message -- if you were working 12 hour days you might let the occasional message.

I think delays in communication may also occur when someone is occasionally not interested, but doesn't want to directly say no. It would be interesting to hear what kind of communications you have had ignored and/or in what ways you are inviting people.

That said, I do agree that the Kansai way of communication feels more "western" in some ways. But at the same time, after living in Tokyo for this long I would be a little surprised if someone on the train struck up a conversation with me.
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stumptowny



Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/quote] Just the people in general. Where do you live in Tokyo---or Kanagawa? I lived in Kanagawa for a year and even within that prefecture found differences. I thought that the vibe and the people along the Tokaido line (especially Fujisawa, where I spent the most time---but Chigasaki too) were pretty friendly, but then I lived in Yamato city and absolutely hated it. But then, there are lots of military in Kanagawa---at the bases as well as ex-military guys, and maybe that had something to do with it---that's the vibe I got in Yamato for sure.[/quote]

appreciate your feedback for sure. vibe is cool, but this thread is really about communication flakiness. vibe really gets you no where if other things do not fall in place after.

so how is the messaging, texting, and email communications in shonan? consistently normal/good? better?

there are no military people near me and I don't look like one either but they are pretty clueless so who knows. they think the nigerians here are american and they have no loser radar. they date total loser gaijins who are sporting some cheesy japanese fashion niche.. yamato is crap like machida and much of kanagawa. just bleah in every respect.. can imagine the shonan vibe is a step up by default just for having some nature force present..

thanks for your two cents..
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jmatt



Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stumptowny wrote:
Just the people in general. Where do you live in Tokyo---or Kanagawa? I lived in Kanagawa for a year and even within that prefecture found differences. I thought that the vibe and the people along the Tokaido line (especially Fujisawa, where I spent the most time---but Chigasaki too) were pretty friendly, but then I lived in Yamato city and absolutely hated it. But then, there are lots of military in Kanagawa---at the bases as well as ex-military guys, and maybe that had something to do with it---that's the vibe I got in Yamato for sure.[/quote]

appreciate your feedback for sure. vibe is cool, but this thread is really about communication flakiness. vibe really gets you no where if other things do not fall in place after.

so how is the messaging, texting, and email communications in shonan? consistently normal/good? better?

there are no military people near me and I don't look like one either but they are pretty clueless so who knows. they think the nigerians here are american and they have no loser radar. they date total loser gaijins who are sporting some cheesy japanese fashion niche.. yamato is crap like machida and much of kanagawa. just bleah in every respect.. can imagine the shonan vibe is a step up by default just for having some nature force present..

thanks for your two cents..[/quote]

Sorry for not being more precise, but when I lived there (in Kanagawa until 1998, Tokyo until 2004) messaging/texting was not the norm as now. I was just commenting on a more general level.

Have to disagree somewhat about Machida though----liked that area (though not enough to live there!!!) and used to go there a lot when I lived in Yamato---which as you said, does indeed suck. I lived a minute or so walk from Tsuruma stn. and the vibe in that neighborhood was really weird--and not in a good way. Very unfriendly and strange. And lots of Yakuza. Was overjoyed to leave it and move to Tokyo (Kichijoji), which was awesome.

As far as flakiness--man, it's Japan. People aren't as straightforward and don't really care for those who are----vagueness is nice and the lack of directness can save face---but can be hard to get used to..
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