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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3258
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 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| It's not. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. There are bad places here, there are bad teachers here. There are bad places and bad teachers everywhere. There are good places here, there are good teachers.......... |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| johntpartee wrote: |
| It's not. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. There are bad places here, there are bad teachers here. There are bad places and bad teachers everywhere. There are good places here, there are good teachers.......... |
Good to hear that John. Keep keepin on.
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
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The Edge
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 455
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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I'm here to put the hog in hogwon. China is working hard to develop the middle class, and will do so for some time. Why they are doing it may be seen in different ways. From my perspective, it's this.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that China's leadership is truly communist, and it's desire is to create a communist state based on Marxist ideology. The "natural" progression of power set forth is thus: absolutism > feudallism > bourgeois > proletarian. A proletarian revolution cannot succeed in a feudalistic society and must pass through the bourgeois state. The cause of the apparent failure of the Maoist revolution, according to this theory, can be found in the lack of development of a strong bourgeois state after the fall of the Emperor.
Therefore, the leadership must foster bourgeois capitalism in order to promote proletarianism and erase all traces of its feudal past. In essence, a step backwards. Due to the size of China, and the length of time needed to develop the consciousness of the proletariat, we can expect the bourgeois state to persist for quite a while. For those who wish to develop a middle class life style in China in the present, this is a good thing.
RED |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:34 am Post subject: |
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CAPITALIST ROADER!
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
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isitts
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Posts: 193
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Lobster wrote: |
| I'm here to put the hog in hogwon. |
Meaning you�ll take the cut in pay so the owner can get fatter? You think the students are paying less for their classes than they used to be?
| Lobster wrote: |
| absolutism > feudallism > bourgeois > proletarian. |
Where is Libya now in this spectrum? On their way to feudalism? And is America on its way back to absolutism via feudalism, or are we certain the working class will rise and create a proletariat? I suppose it�ll be interesting to watch, but does this always go like clockwork? Isn�t that model just an idea that someone dreamed�based on what he hoped would happen?
It seems to have a logical flow, but it also seems like there is a lot more variety in the paths that nations in the past have taken.
| Brian Hugh wrote: |
| Hell I'm here for the show. |
Sweet. You sure you�re sitting at a safe distance? I�ll admit, it feels like the high ground for the time being. Hopefully lobster is right and that we can live a comfortable middle class life out here for a while. |
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The Edge
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 455
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| Great thread. |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Meaning you�ll take the cut in pay so the owner can get fatter? |
No, it means your reading comprehension is really poor.
| Quote: |
| Where is Libya now in this spectrum? On their way to feudalism? And is America on its way back to absolutism via feudalism, or are we certain the working class will rise and create a proletariat? |
This forum deals with one place. It starts with C and ends with A and it's not Canada or Cambodia.
| Quote: |
| Isn�t that model just an idea that someone dreamed�based on what he hoped would happen? |
Why don't you read the Manifesto and find out for yourself. It's not that long. You could finish it in a month or two.
RED |
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known
Joined: 26 May 2012
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that China's leadership is truly communist, and it's desire is to create a communist state based on Marxist ideology. The "natural" progression of power set forth is thus: absolutism > feudallism > bourgeois > proletarian. A proletarian revolution cannot succeed in a feudalistic society and must pass through the bourgeois state. The cause of the apparent failure of the Maoist revolution, according to this theory, can be found in the lack of development of a strong bourgeois state after the fall of the Emperor.
Therefore, the leadership must foster bourgeois capitalism in order to promote proletarianism and erase all traces of its feudal past. In essence, a step backwards. Due to the size of China, and the length of time needed to develop the consciousness of the proletariat, we can expect the bourgeois state to persist for quite a while. For those who wish to develop a middle class life style in China in the present, this is a good thing. |
Interesting post RED, as you said there are different ways of seeing the path China is taking. Here's my opinion for what its worth:
Let�s say, for the sake of argument, that China�s leadership is truly Kapitalist, and its desire is to create a class state based on that ideology. The �Marxist� progression of power set forth thus: absolutism> feudalism> Kapitalism> communism. A proletarian revolution cannot fully succeed in a feudalistic society and will pass through to a capitalist state. The cause of the apparent failure of the Maoist revolution, according to this theory, can be found in the lack of development of a strong classless state after the fall of the Emperor.
Fortunately for the Marxists, the leadership is fostering Laissez-faire economics in order to promote capitalism and erase all traces of its communist past. In essence, a step forward. Due to Confucianism in China, the length of time needed to dispel the false class consciousness of the proletariat will be long�we can expect the revolution not to occur for quite a while. For those who wish to develop a bourgeois middle class life style in China in the present, this might actually be a bad thing.
For anyone who doesn�t know already and is at all interested in education seen from a Marxist perspective Bourdieu on Cultural Capital in schools is worth a look.
Whether you are interested or not the summer break is looming for at least some of us�enjoy the time off!
Known |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:28 am Post subject: |
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I see where you were going with the first part, and the premise based on capitalist leadership. However, passing through to a capitalist state and the part about a "classless" state is a bit confusing. What is meant but the "false class consciousness" of the proletariat? If indeed the state you describe is accurate, why would it be a bad thing for people who want a bourgeois middle class life style? Are you suggesting that China, beyond its tribal roots, has ever actually been a communist state? To me, it appears that the concept of communism was twisted as it was in the USSR, giving rise to neo-feudalism and state control of capital.
RED |
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isitts
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Posts: 193
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| Lobster wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Meaning you�ll take the cut in pay so the owner can get fatter? |
No, it means your reading comprehension is really poor. |
? The only ones who benefit from capitalism are those at the top. Everyone else loses ground, as the OP stated, as has been stated in numerous threads before it, and as many who currently live in actual capitalist states have found out.
If buxiban owners are paying 10-15k/mo to English teachers, what are they coming away with? And how much are they charging the students so that the owner can pay you that? With the rising cost of living, who's winning in this scenario?
| Lobster wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Where is Libya now in this spectrum? On their way to feudalism? And is America on its way back to absolutism via feudalism, or are we certain the working class will rise and create a proletariat? |
This forum deals with one place. It starts with C and ends with A and it's not Canada or Cambodia. |
Pretty sure Marx was not from China. So why does his model only apply to China? And speaking of the other countries that his ideas did apply to, how are they doing these days? Are they on track with the model?
| Lobster wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Isn�t that model just an idea that someone dreamed�based on what he hoped would happen? |
Why don't you read the Manifesto and find out for yourself. It's not that long. You could finish it in a month or two. |
Not really interested in other peoples� dreams. I have dreams of my own. But fair enough. I�ll look into it after I�m done with my current books.
As for what ideology the Chinese leaders truly subscribe to, it doesn�t matter. As humans, they will embrace anything that will ensure that they stay in power. And if embracing capitalism is the way to achieve that, then that�s what they�ll do. And they�ll benefit from it and live wealthy lives, just as Mao did in his �Communist State�*. How the rest of the country fares is another story. But most likely, it'll be the same old story; the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the transient middle class will inevitably join the poor.
*�Communist State� is an oxymoron. Just as �Global Community� is. Communes/communities by their nature are small. Lenin, Stalin, and Mao were not communists, they were dictators. |
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isitts
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Posts: 193
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| known wrote: |
| Quote: |
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that China's leadership is truly communist, and it's desire is to create a communist state based on Marxist ideology. The "natural" progression of power set forth is thus: absolutism > feudallism > bourgeois > proletarian. A proletarian revolution cannot succeed in a feudalistic society and must pass through the bourgeois state. The cause of the apparent failure of the Maoist revolution, according to this theory, can be found in the lack of development of a strong bourgeois state after the fall of the Emperor.
Therefore, the leadership must foster bourgeois capitalism in order to promote proletarianism and erase all traces of its feudal past. In essence, a step backwards. Due to the size of China, and the length of time needed to develop the consciousness of the proletariat, we can expect the bourgeois state to persist for quite a while. For those who wish to develop a middle class life style in China in the present, this is a good thing. |
Interesting post RED, as you said there are different ways of seeing the path China is taking. Here's my opinion for what its worth:
Let�s say, for the sake of argument, that China�s leadership is truly Kapitalist, and its desire is to create a class state based on that ideology. The �Marxist� progression of power set forth thus: absolutism> feudalism> Kapitalism> communism. A proletarian revolution cannot fully succeed in a feudalistic society and will pass through to a capitalist state. The cause of the apparent failure of the Maoist revolution, according to this theory, can be found in the lack of development of a strong classless state after the fall of the Emperor.
Fortunately for the Marxists, the leadership is fostering Laissez-faire economics in order to promote capitalism and erase all traces of its communist past. In essence, a step forward. Due to Confucianism in China, the length of time needed to dispel the false class consciousness of the proletariat will be long�we can expect the revolution not to occur for quite a while. For those who wish to develop a bourgeois middle class life style in China in the present, this might actually be a bad thing.
For anyone who doesn�t know already and is at all interested in education seen from a Marxist perspective Bourdieu on Cultural Capital in schools is worth a look.
Whether you are interested or not the summer break is looming for at least some of us�enjoy the time off!
Known |
This actually makes a little more sense to me.
| Quote: |
| Bourdieu on Cultural Capital |
This a book? Did a google search and got obscure results. This is Pierre Bourdieu? |
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