Job Discussion Forums

[stumptowny]

one of the JTE's I teach with, a man about 45, who has traveled abroad and knows whats up, was spewing the truth today. a novel perspective to say the least. after talking about 'social harmony' he said that japanese are obedient conformists and that everyone are cowards for not going against the grain. yes, the C word! and from a native.... it was really interesting to hear that from him. he started to tell me what he thought and I vouched for the japanese, saying the cliched, maybe it is just because people are clueless here. they haven't traveled and don't know any other way. then he said no, they understand what is happening around them. they are just cowards.. crazy huh.. curious to know if other japanese would admit the same? discuss. (me = chair, popcorn)

[dove]

Many Japanese people--especially those fluent in English and those who have spent time abroad--are often quite frank with their disapproval of the often constricting societal norms in Japan. But they are also resigned to the fact that it's hard (impossible?) to do much to change the way things are. On a related note, I often had students tell me how immature they thought Japanese society was. They pointed out comics, AKB48, character mascots, Japanese variety shows, having rules announced at all times in stations and subways, etc.

[Glenski]

The fact that he has traveled abroad speaks leagues here.

However, what does he mean by going against the grain? To what extent is he stretching this point? Jaywalking? Many do it. Protesting to the government. Lots of grassroots groups out there.

Examples, please.

Yes, Japanese are largely (not 100%) conformist in nature. But let's set some ground rules.

[mitsui]

I don't know. I find the society authoritarian but I see some people just conforming if they are being watched.
Otherwise people seem rather individualistic, at least in Tokyo.

However, you also can find the non-conformist conformists like the bosozoku who are outside the mainstream but conform in their own subculture.

Also I think there is more conforming in Tokyo due to the legacy of the Tokugawa bakufu.

[stumptowny]

culturally oppressive is an understatement much of the time.. viewing it as conformity is no mystery to anyone with outside perspective.

I was taken by his use of coward more than anything.. implying there is something that should/could be done but isn't. systemic apathy. obviously you can't change something so endemic... with pop culture, work, and school life perpetually reenforcing it. many contexts exist where rules are not dictated by mores and thank god for those places... shonan and beach life come to mind...

[mitsui]

The other thing is that society here is based on rules and not moral principles.
Religion does not play much of a role.

Japan is a secular society based on rules for groups.

[stumptowny]

oopsies

[Tsian]

I don't find it particularly surprising that someone who strongly disagrees with the way Japanese social structure is set up would have sought to travel abroad (and perhaps at one point wished to stay there.)

I find the use of "coward" or "culturally oppressive" also rather interesting, and fairly judgmental in that he is (I would guess) judging Japanese social norms on a western scale.

I think that you can see a large group of subcultures present in Japan and a large amount of "deviation" from the norm is treated as normal, and not particularly shunned.

Could you imagine someone like "Ikko" shilling for female body products in North America?

(Not that I am going to argue that Japan is someone a wonderful haven for diversity, just that much criticism seems to end at the surface)

[OneJoelFifty]

You have to ask, what is there that people should be fighting against?

The societal rules are obviously restrictive. I know quite a few young Japanese women that have travelled abroad to English-speaking countries, and a some that have spent years living in London. They like it because they can escape what's expected of them, and feel as though they are free to make their own choices.

But as for the Japanese being cowards...I'm not sure I buy it. These societal rules that supposedly oppress are arguably the same ones that mean Japan can operate with a relatively low crime rate, ensure people tend to be polite to each other in public, encourage a strong sense of duty at work and maintain the small gaps in the class system. Of course not being Japanese I could be missing a whole lot, but it looks to me as though there's a big upside to not rocking the boat.

[ZennoSaji]

It might make the country run like a smooth, well-oiled machine but they're not robots; they're people, and each and every person is unique and individual. Individuality can be nurtured while at the same time endorsing integrity and pride in making the machine stay smooth and well-oiled. There's being good because you're afraid not to be, and then there's being good because you want to be.

[steki47]

[GambateBingBangBOOM]

The following is from the (then?) vice-president of a university in Tokyo,

[Tsian]

Except I think the system in schools, through creating various subgroups in classes responsible for different things, and with club-heads and what not, also creates situations where the students have to decide things for themselves -- I don't think it is a correct characterization to say that everything flows from the top.


Gambate: That is an interesting though. Do you think this attempt to ship problems down the road is particularly prevalent in Japan as compared to other countries?

[Cool Teacher]

I think some non-Japanese feel a bit smug ans superior as if their individualism is obviously better than communal society. I like the fact that people generally behave well and don't try to cause probelms for society. In England too many peopel casually destroy other people's lives on the idea that they are just expressing themselves and tell everyone not to judge them.

[stumptowny]

by mere coincidence, on the train this morning I was tuned into kqed, the san francisco npr affiliate, and I caught a great interview of a former japanese businessman turned professor who now teaches in japan after having been educated in the USA. he also gives presentations to companies in japan about innovation and changing japanese corporate culture. did not catch what program? effectively he compared the japanese system with that of other countries and also with creative development.

he noted 2 things as distinctly japanese: 1) the breaking in period (similar to breaking a wild horse) of children, up until high school, at which time they take exams and then coast through uni as a respite before salary man demise. breaking in meaning that children here veer from normal behavioral development, as seen in other countries, and careen into rules and structure, shaping them for their working future. 2) innovation is non-existent. it is basically missing from the japanese dictionary in practical, applicable terms. he stated that, where as the peak age for creativity and innovation is 27 years old, japanese do not gain any status at companies until 40 years old for promotion. promotion is based on seniority, not potential. so, according to the speaker, the innovative years are lost to politeness, saving face, and not speaking up with new ideas or disagreeing in meetings. sitting idle for promotion.

he said there are two types of people that are successful japanese innovators. 1) those that leave to other asian countries to start business or 2) to the USA..

so regarding bucking the cowardliness trend in the corporate context (at our schools and much of society), pioneering would be to speak up, disagree, share novel/creative ideas, seek promotion, or move to other countries if you are stifled here. all easier said than done. as noted, failure is not an option in the workplace so no one tries to innovate (or go against the 'cowardliness grain' if you are the teacher I work with who said japanese are cowards, not just obedient). in meetings people do not disagree openly, and if they pose a question, they should know the answer, said npr man. he said they will not speak on something if they do not know the answer for fear of losing face. they will not venture out into new opportunities for fear of failure as their family and friends will not approve.. failure drives the lack of innovation here, not the chance at success.

in writing this, recalling what I heard this morning, it is so oppressive.. yet the hi tech start ups are mostly young people when they began, jobbs, gates, zuckerburg, silicon valley, dot.bombs, on and on.. yet in japan you have an arbitrary wait until around 40 when you gain some status at your company... by then, creatively, the peak may be waning, if not dumbed down by years of obedience. in the last 20 years, japan has had little innovation (according to the guest, not me). he gave no examples but I can think of the hybrid car where they clearly crush. but across the board they are lagging. it was interesting to hear and offers some insight that I certainly didn't have.. lunch time thesis today...