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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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 Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Riding One wrote: |
The times have indeed changed.
The days of submitting fake degrees and celtas are over. The MOET (Ministry of Education) is pushing schools for real now to get WPs done and they are visiting schools and checking.
Some people that are in at the big schools with fake docs that are *very popular* with students are being covered for, but this is a small, small, minority. These teachers also can never leave their schools for other pastures.
A teacher hired 2 months ago just got his WP rejected because he gave our HR department a fake degree which they submitted to the authorities for the work permit. (His celta was real.)
The authorities said this teacher had to go within 3 months so my school is letting him finish his classes when they naturally end and he will have to leave.
Not saying this is completely fair, but with all of the new teachers arriving with real docs there just is not room for the old school folks with no paper. |
Yep, by the sound of it, the times are indeed changing and, generally speaking, I think it's a good thing. The story about the teacher who got his work permit rejected is interesting as one of the guys who I did my CELTA with in Hanoi had a very similar background. Good bloke, good teacher, students really liked him but he had no degree. The school where he did the CELTA wanted to hire him so they just told him to fly to Bangkok and buy a 'degree' on Khao San Road. I wonder how often that sort of thing still goes on now  . |
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EFLeducator
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| VietCanada wrote: |
| People should be sure that they can get a WP before coming here. Not only is it a bit rough leaving the country every three months not knowing for sure if they'll let you back in but some schools that have been havens for WP-less teachers in the past are now insisting on WPs. You need a real degree, a 120 hr TEFL certificate, a criminal background check, a health exam here and a school that knows what's required of them. And Money of course. It takes a month or so to get the WP. |
You need to SHOW that you have a REAL degree?? |
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just noel
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLeducator wrote: |
| You need to SHOW that you have a REAL degree?? |
Erm....yes.
Notarization for starters and MOET and DOLISA have records of Uni seals, dates, etc.
One of my friends submitted a degree from Oz that was real, but since then the Uni had changed some docs. His degree was over 25 years old and they rejected it.
He had to contact the Uni and do a lot of back and forth before they found out that his Uni degree was real and that he actually attended the school and got a degree.
At my school you MUST send official transcripts for them to pay and the do leg work for the work permit.
I think this is fair.
Its costs the school time and money. |
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sigmoid
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1276
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Stricter regulations have no effect other than to create a EFL teacher shortage, jobs for bureaucrats and revenue for the state. |
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EFLeducator
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| just noel wrote: |
| EFLeducator wrote: |
| You need to SHOW that you have a REAL degree?? |
Erm....yes.
Notarization for starters and MOET and DOLISA have records of Uni seals, dates, etc.
One of my friends submitted a degree from Oz that was real, but since then the Uni had changed some docs. His degree was over 25 years old and they rejected it.
He had to contact the Uni and do a lot of back and forth before they found out that his Uni degree was real and that he actually attended the school and got a degree.
At my school you MUST send official transcripts for them to pay and the do leg work for the work permit.
I think this is fair.
Its costs the school time and money. |
I've heard that people can work in Vietnam with "fake" degrees. Not sure I would want to try that since they would put me out of the country. I have a real masters in Education so I should be OK. |
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EFLeducator
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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What's the starting pay rate in Ho Chi Minh City for someone with a masters, 120 hour TEFL certificate and experience teaching at a community college in Texas and in Mexico City for a number of years?
A little bird told me most schools would pay what's equal to 20 dollars an hour. |
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drpangloss
Joined: 21 Mar 2012
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLeducator--I had a phone conversation with ILA and they offered me $23/hr. Don't know if they were blowing smoke up my skirt but it sounds alright. I have a CELTA and 3 years' experience, for reference, so with your master's you should probably do better than that. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| sigmoid wrote: |
| Stricter regulations have no effect other than to create a EFL teacher shortage, jobs for bureaucrats and revenue for the state. |
And a "teacher shortage" means higher wages, more hours to go around and better conditions for those of us who fulfill the requirements  . |
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EFLeducator
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| sigmoid wrote: |
| Stricter regulations have no effect other than to create a EFL teacher shortage, jobs for bureaucrats and revenue for the state. |
And a "teacher shortage" means higher wages, more hours to go around and better conditions for those of us who fulfill the requirements . |
Nice! Right!! |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| sigmoid wrote: |
| Stricter regulations have no effect other than to create a EFL teacher shortage, jobs for bureaucrats and revenue for the state. |
And a "teacher shortage" means higher wages, more hours to go around and better conditions for those of us who fulfill the requirements . |
I'd like to think that too. However, I still think the dodgy schools will be here, as will 6 month multiple entry visas provided by corrupt officials via travel agencies with connections so the Muppet Brigade will continue to keep wages stagnant unless you're able to get a higher level job with a Masters and the like. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| sigmoid wrote: |
| Stricter regulations have no effect other than to create a EFL teacher shortage, jobs for bureaucrats and revenue for the state. |
And a "teacher shortage" means higher wages, more hours to go around and better conditions for those of us who fulfill the requirements . |
I'd like to think that too. However, I still think the dodgy schools will be here, as will 6 month multiple entry visas provided by corrupt officials via travel agencies with connections so the Muppet Brigade will continue to keep wages stagnant unless you're able to get a higher level job with a Masters and the like. |
I'm sure there will always be a "Muppet Brigade" in Vietnam  . However, problems with visas, paying bribes etc makes teaching here illegally more expensive/difficult both for the employer and employee and therefore less attractive. Although I have no doubt that there will continue to be dodgy schools out there, in principle, an increased crackdown by the state should mean that teachers who do fulfill the requirements will be in greater demand and hence receive better conditions.
I don't see Vietnam instituting visa requirements for Masters degrees any time soon and they would be foolish if they did. If a school wants to only hire people with those qualifications then, as far as I'm concerned, that's up to them. Of course, if a school does require applicants with DELTAs, Masters etc they better be offering the perks consistent with attracting applicants with those qualifications or they will have a tough time finding suitable staff. |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| kurtz wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| sigmoid wrote: |
| Stricter regulations have no effect other than to create a EFL teacher shortage, jobs for bureaucrats and revenue for the state. |
And a "teacher shortage" means higher wages, more hours to go around and better conditions for those of us who fulfill the requirements . |
I'd like to think that too. However, I still think the dodgy schools will be here, as will 6 month multiple entry visas provided by corrupt officials via travel agencies with connections so the Muppet Brigade will continue to keep wages stagnant unless you're able to get a higher level job with a Masters and the like. |
I'm sure there will always be a "Muppet Brigade" in Vietnam . However, problems with visas, paying bribes etc makes teaching here illegally more expensive/difficult both for the employer and employee and therefore less attractive. Although I have no doubt that there will continue to be dodgy schools out there, in principle, an increased crackdown by the state should mean that teachers who do fulfill the requirements will be in greater demand and hence receive better conditions.
I don't see Vietnam instituting visa requirements for Masters degrees any time soon and they would be foolish if they did. If a school wants to only hire people with those qualifications then, as far as I'm concerned, that's up to them. Of course, if a school does require applicants with DELTAs, Masters etc they better be offering the perks consistent with attracting applicants with those qualifications or they will have a tough time finding suitable staff. |
I'm not saying a Masters would be required to work here. I was just saying to get out of the mill scene, or to get a uni, AC or DOS job, and hence be a few rungs higher than the General English taught by Muppets in dodgy schools, one would assume a Masters and or DELTA would be required.
You've been here a lot longer than I have but I get the impression that the Viets apart from making the visa laws more difficult from time to time, (even though there are ways around that such as the Phnom Penh visa run) they aren't that bothered about closing down the illegal ESL scene here. The Muppets will continue to scrape by and spend their down time drinking and smoking themselves to death at a bia hoi, and $20-$25 an hour will continue to be on the upper pay scale.
I just hope I'm wrong and the less desirables get run out of town across to Cambodia and the few legit teachers (well, those with at least a 4 years degree and a CELTA/TESOL-cert) reap the benefits of less bodies in the country. |
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deadlift
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
I'm not saying a Masters would be required to work here. I was just saying to get out of the mill scene, or to get a uni, AC or DOS job, and hence be a few rungs higher than the General English taught by Muppets in dodgy schools, one would assume a Masters and or DELTA would be required.
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Don't assume this.
RMIT hires people with a degree, a CELTA, and quality experience teaching academic English/ adults. The starting rate is $2,909 per month, full insurance, work permit legwork done and paid for, and 1 or 2 year visas. The next pay level is a hair over $4,100 per month, and even for that, you don't need an MA or DELTA.
Of course you also have to be able to put together a decent resume, follow the rules of submission, and interview well. I can't state for certain but I would assume that having a long list of dodgy language mills on your CV is not going to do you any favours.
As far as I'm aware, the above is generally true also for ACET and BC, salary and perks aside.
It's not nearly as hard to get into a good job as people like to claim. |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the heads up, Deadlift. This being SE Asia, almost anything is possible.
I know of at least one psychotic and deranged individual who landed a job at RMIT. I might even give it a crack myself when this contract is over; if I fail, well, that will be quite a kick in the pants.......
Not too keen on ACET from what I've heard; 4 hour teen classes?! |
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it'snotmyfault
Joined: 14 May 2012
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:52 am Post subject: |
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I'm planning on heading to Vietnam soon too, China has ground me down.
Been in China for 18months since doing my CELTA in Vietnam and as far as professional development goes..well, I've learnt a few games.
Think I'll need to reprogramme my brain and remember everything I did on the CELTA. |
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