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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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 Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:16 am Post subject: Full circle |
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As for classroom discipline, a teacher that does not set behavioural guidelines and expectations AND enforces them is... useless.
I have seen children slap, kick, spit and punch, on different occasions, teachers that were clearly unable to take control of the classroom - What misery for the teacher, the community, and the child's future. Granted, the Vietnamese students are a joy to teach, but on occasion, for the health of the learning environment, some tough love must be dished out to those that want to challenge the dynamics of productive learning.
I cannot understand the premise students do not want to or cannot speak English, at any level. Why the hell are they in my classroom? - Certainly not for the intricacies of linguistic forms. It is the teacher's job to understand, and lets face it, the not too demanding rudiments of form/grammar and the presentation of these within enjoyable lexical sets and assignments - The teacher that stands there for an hour and a half 'lecturing' the present simple, is a *beep*.
I'd like to hear how teachers manage the dynamics of larger classes in universities. I would not know how to begin to conduct effective learning strategies for classes of over 35 students and sometimes as many as 60+. Perhaps then, I would lecture like Noam Chomsky and have a stick handy for any of those 'talking in class', while I'm enlightening the ignorant masses - Any takers? |
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Riding One
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| 8balldeluxe wrote: |
Let's discuss these points. Yes, normally writing is the last thing for second language students, but Vietnamese have such an aversion to speaking even in their own lives that I have placed it last , but reading is second, then writing. Why? First, we are not talking about 1st language acquisition. They are not developing infants and toddlers. This is 2nd language , and the order of acquisition is different.
How can they speak if they do not know the language? Speaking is demonstrating what they already know. How can you learn a word by speaking? If you do not know how to speak and what word to use how can you speak? Recognizing printed words is much easier and takes much less effort for a second language speaker to comprehend. Besides, you are forcing them to speak in your my way or the highway classroom. A sure way to keep students at a strict language mill in line, but not a way to learn.
In fact, putting them on the spot to speak is the surest way I know, to get Vietnamese students to be silent and afraid to participate in a classroom, so you are right it is a good behavior control technique . But not a teaching method. |
You make some good points above 8balldeluxe and I agree with your points above. Speaking can put new vocab into long-term memory and a usable lexicon, IMO. (I have not seen the studies.)
8balldeluxe,
By your take on reading and it's value in second language acquisition, it seems that you are agreeing with Stephen Krashen on this.
Do you read or agree with Krashen? |
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Riding One
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| 8balldeluxe wrote: |
Let's discuss these points. Yes, normally writing is the last thing for second language students, but Vietnamese have such an aversion to speaking even in their own lives that I have placed it last , but reading is second, then writing. Why? First, we are not talking about 1st language acquisition. They are not developing infants and toddlers. This is 2nd language , and the order of acquisition is different.
How can they speak if they do not know the language? Speaking is demonstrating what they already know. How can you learn a word by speaking? If you do not know how to speak and what word to use how can you speak? Recognizing printed words is much easier and takes much less effort for a second language speaker to comprehend. Besides, you are forcing them to speak in your my way or the highway classroom. A sure way to keep students at a strict language mill in line, but not a way to learn.
In fact, putting them on the spot to speak is the surest way I know, to get Vietnamese students to be silent and afraid to participate in a classroom, so you are right it is a good behavior control technique . But not a teaching method. |
You make some good points above 8balldeluxe and I agree with your points above. Speaking can put new vocab into long-term memory and a usable lexicon, IMO. (I have not seen the studies.)
8balldeluxe,
By your take on reading and it's value in second language acquisition, it seems that you are agreeing with Stephen Krashen on this.
Do you read or agree with Krashen? |
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Riding One
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| 8balldeluxe wrote: |
Let's discuss these points. Yes, normally writing is the last thing for second language students, but Vietnamese have such an aversion to speaking even in their own lives that I have placed it last , but reading is second, then writing. Why? First, we are not talking about 1st language acquisition. They are not developing infants and toddlers. This is 2nd language , and the order of acquisition is different.
How can they speak if they do not know the language? Speaking is demonstrating what they already know. How can you learn a word by speaking? If you do not know how to speak and what word to use how can you speak? Recognizing printed words is much easier and takes much less effort for a second language speaker to comprehend. Besides, you are forcing them to speak in your my way or the highway classroom. A sure way to keep students at a strict language mill in line, but not a way to learn.
In fact, putting them on the spot to speak is the surest way I know, to get Vietnamese students to be silent and afraid to participate in a classroom, so you are right it is a good behavior control technique . But not a teaching method. |
You make some good points above 8balldeluxe and I agree with your points above. Speaking can put new vocab into long-term memory and a usable lexicon, IMO. (I have not seen the studies.)
8balldeluxe,
By your take on reading and it's value in second language acquisition, it seems that you are agreeing with Stephen Krashen on this.
Do you read or agree with Krashen? |
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8balldeluxe
Joined: 03 Jun 2009
Posts: 64
Location: vietnam
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Bene wrote
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| I think saying Vietnamese find it hard to speak is absurd. Maybe I haven't lived here as long as some of you (since 2009) but people in Hanoi never stop talking to me in both English and Vietnamese. |
Can you comprehend that I meant the way we teach English using speaking exercises makes it so Vietnamese students do not feel like speaking or participating ? -or they speak much less than if you don't use the exercise?
I never said they do not speak or like to speak English. My students speak a lot but I wait for them to ask me something or speak when they want to. But i do not use role plays, or pairwork or surveys because they do not say much when using them.
If students do a reading or listening exercise they talk about a topic if it interests them or if they are interested in the reading. They learn vocabulary from seeing it in use, not from using it. Saying they learn language by speaking is absurd. If it were true it would nullify about two thirds or your classtime following the textbook though wouldn't it?
Last edited by 8balldeluxe on Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:54 pm; edited 7 times in total |
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8balldeluxe
Joined: 03 Jun 2009
Posts: 64
Location: vietnam
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I cannot understand the premise students do not want to or cannot speak English, at any level. Why the hell are they in my classroom? - |
Yes, they sure want to speak, English. Who said they did not want to learn to speak English , or can not do so? Is the way you teach them the only way they can learn? are you sure about that? If you ask students to break into groups and imagine they were stuck on a desert island and could only have 20 things, what would they choose, please discuss. Is that going to help them learn to speak English? I really don't think so. I think it wastes their time. They are just using the words they already know. |
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deadlift
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| 8balldeluxe wrote: |
| If you ask students to break into groups and imagine they were stuck on a desert island and could only have 20 things, what would they choose, please discuss. Is that going to help them learn to speak English? I really don't think so. I think it wastes their time. They are just using the words they already know. |
"Look guys, the teacher wants us to list 20 nouns, OK? Let's just get this over with.. I'll start... smart phone, TV, airconditioner... " |
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vabeckele
Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:02 am Post subject: Funny stuff |
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I started with the students being funny about course structure, now it seems the teachers have the same problem - buggered if you do, buggered if you don't.
Why bother teaching at all if it is all a waste of time?
The fact of the matter is, teachers are there to provide a medium within which to learn, give guidance and as a motivator.
Perhaps, unintentionally, I created a dichotomy between grammatical rules and building upon vocabulary and oral communication. Hence, the desert island reference.
In any case, we are social beings and if we repeat the same meaning to each other while cancelling out the mistakes, agreement will begin to take place in a 'social' setting and not locked away in some dark corner with a bare yellow 40 watt bulb for company. |
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