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RPMcMurphy
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 90
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:15 pm Post subject: Student expectations. How do you rate? |
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From "Understanding Chinese Students' Teacher Dependence" Gao Xuesong (2006).
Chinese Students' Expectations of a Good Teacher.
Top four.
Has deep knowledge 67%
Is patient 25%
Is humorous 24%
Is a good moral example 22% |
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kungfuman
Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 1749
Location: In My Own Private Idaho
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:13 am Post subject: Re: Student expectations. How do you rate? |
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| RPMcMurphy wrote: |
From "Understanding Chinese Students' Teacher Dependence" Gao Xuesong (2006).
Chinese Students' Expectations of a Good Teacher.
Top four.
Has deep knowledge 67%
Is patient 25%
Is humorous 24%
Is a good moral example 22% |
It's a pretty poor choice for self-assessment |
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RPMcMurphy
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 90
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:27 am Post subject: |
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Kungfuman, sorry I should have explained it more fully. From a long list of expectations Chinese students have of their teachers, these rated as the top four. It was only carried out at one university with some 360 respondents, so is very small scale research, but I thought could be a useful discussion starter regarding the very high degree of reliance Chinese students have on their primarily Chinese teachers.
Just before anyone points out the obvious, students clearly were allowed more than one choice. |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:44 am Post subject: |
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If the bickering and sniping at each other continue, we will be missing some members very quickly.
Last edited by Mr. Kalgukshi on Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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chinatimes
Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Student expectations. How do you rate? |
Has deep knowledge 67%
When I studied Japanese, we agreed we didn't have to know much about a subject matter a student or students were interested in. The point was to use Japanese, even if we gave false information or stated opinions others disagreed with.
We can't teach English to students, but we can speak to students in English.
There is a difference. English is the composite of everyone, a teacher is just one of those people, one extract, one perspective. This is similar to an accent. I hear students who "mispronounce" words, but I always ask myself, "Could British English sound a word like this?"
If a student is really going to down a teacher for not knowing something, they better be in an advanced class.
Is patient 25%
If patience here is the teacher waiting for students, then how long do they wait? My college experience taught me that teachers/professors give the information, and we are on a fixed schedule. Patience was a very small factor when it came to learning inside the classroom.
If the teacher were available outside of the classroom and beyond office hours, then I would use patience as a factor of the teacher and not the school. The teacher would be the one offering more time in this case as opposed to fulfilling a contractual obligation.
Is humorous 24%
They can expect it, but I don't know many good professors or teachers who got their whole lecture or lesson taught merely through comedic performance. I understand that a 40 minute - 1.5 hour class is not always going to be fun. I study and teach with this in mind.
Is a good moral example 22%
Well, obviously. Everyone should. I don't know what immoral acts someone should do to get a grade or improve their teaching. That's like saying, "Doesn't steal candy bars before class."
I don't know where the numbers are derived from, 67 + 25 + 24 + 22 = 138
I think it would be clearer to use ratios representing teacher:student.
Knowledge, 50:50 (a teacher must know what they are teaching, students must decide what they want to know)
Patience, 60:40 (a teacher must be available outside of office hours, students must dedicate themselves to a subject also outside of class time)
Humorous, 55:45 (some of the best lessons are "spiced" up with humor, from both teacher and student, sure the teacher should encourage it, but it's not all from the teacher)
Moral, 50:50 (everyone should be moral, if you can't set a good example of morality in college, then you shouldn't be a teacher or a student)
In other words, for the teacher, they should be judged more based on:
being patient, 35%
being moral, 35%
having knowledge, 20%
being humorous, 10% |
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RPMcMurphy
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 90
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:09 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Chinatimes. I guess in the Chinese context, the morality bit relates to the teachers' behaviour out of class. As he/she [and you] often live on-campus, you tend to be observed, especially the FT.
Humour I don't think means your stand-up comedy routine. It probably means your ability to find a light moment, whatever the classroom scenario. Chinese, and most students, do like to laugh, and it shows they're listening.
The originator of this article was, I think, more concerned at students' perceptions of what teachers should be. Reading the entire article, his emphasis is on how to change those perceptions.
I guess an easier way to answer this would be along the lines of:
-is this your experience of students' expectations?
-how have you attempted to change these?
I'll hold off on my ideas for now, but I have been teaching these kids for fifteen years now so hopefully I have some insight. |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:58 am Post subject: |
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RPMcMurphy,
Was that article by Gao in TESOL Quarterly by chance?
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
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chinatimes
Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
-is this your experience of students' expectations?
-how have you attempted to change these? |
It's interesting to see they ask what students expect. I went to various colleges in the US and never once was asked what my expectations were.
Freshmen have an English to Chinese dictionary about 12 inches long. However, they have nothing to go from Chinese to English in order to make sentences. Being a native English teacher at a college, should we be expected to speak English at a rate they can look up every word we say in that dictionary? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a Chinese to English dictionary and actually have the student in a "Spoken English" class speak English instead of looking up words?
Before students can formulate expectations of the teacher, we need to really ask ourselves what are the expectations they have of the course. I asked seniors the same question as to why they are taking a newspaper class with a native English speaker. It would make more sense to have a presentation class instead of reading. The structure of the curriculum puts native speakers in a position where they are constantly going against the grain.
That would be my expected judgment, "Teacher is not teaching the class objectives, going against the grain." I would fail and succeed at the same time for different opposing reasons. I am not stressing Chinese interpretations but rather skills necessary to understand English.
I tell all my classes they need to get involved more.
| Quote: |
| As he/she [and you] often live on-campus, you tend to be observed, especially the FT. |
Well, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. This was actually a bigger issue in high school (sometimes middle school) where we didn't have cars, but we had to use either a bicycle or bus to get to school. By the time you can drive, it is no different than attending a meeting.
We are not in cubicles. Citing the campus is a false assumption that somehow we are going to be more closely bonded. That is not the case. When I worked in a small city/district and had to walk around the neighborhood to shop or just to go to school I got a lot more stares and conversation.
On campus everything is there, students don't need to leave. If a teacher goes shopping at a store the stares are more centralized to the locals rather than the students. There are ways to go about doing things, and it's the security guards and the maintenance crew that enforce them not Chinese teachers or higher ranking staff.
I think these questions assume too much of one person's stereotypes, fears, and paranoia rather than addressing how students can improve.
I think students should be allowed to form their own groups and activities outside of the classroom, rather than waiting for the school dean to tell them what to do.
I sure never had a dean schedule evening meetings with our classes, like they were some principal at a pep rally in high school. The Chinese have students on lockdown mode more so than the West. It's time to free the gates and let students mingle. They are basically ticking time bombs in classes, waiting go off any minute. Maybe they should learn to deal with their independence rather than be told what it will be.
Last edited by chinatimes on Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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RPMcMurphy
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 90
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| fat_chris wrote: |
RPMcMurphy,
Was that article by Gao in TESOL Quarterly by chance?
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
Quite possibly Chris. I got it from Language Teacher Research in Asia, Ed. Thomas Farrell, TESOL.Inc.2006
chinatimes, in Shanghai 2004 we had riots over lights out and lock down. I'm talking students throwing furniture etc. out of dorms at cruising police cars -those big water bottles worked best- and then lighting everything combustible and throwing that out too. Of course by next morning it was all cleaned up, sheepish students at class, no mention in the media. |
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chinatimes
Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| in Shanghai 2004 we had riots over lights out and lock down |
I don't know what that exactly means. Riots were caused by the school's actions? They were a result of students responding to something the school did? Were these riots caused in the streets and then trickled to the college?
I am sorry, I don't know the details and how this pertains to the original post. |
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RPMcMurphy
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 90
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| chinatimes wrote: |
| The Chinese have students on lockdown mode more so than the West. It's time to free the gates and let students mingle. They are basically ticking time bombs in classes, waiting go off any minute. Maybe they should learn to deal with their independence rather than be told what it will be. |
I was referring directly to this comment from you. This was a Shanghai university, and the riots occurred in reaction to a 10.30 curfew. |
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chinatimes
Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| RPMcMurphy wrote: |
| chinatimes wrote: |
| The Chinese have students on lockdown mode more so than the West. It's time to free the gates and let students mingle. They are basically ticking time bombs in classes, waiting go off any minute. Maybe they should learn to deal with their independence rather than be told what it will be. |
I was referring directly to this comment from you. This was a Shanghai university, and the riots occurred in reaction to a 10.30 curfew. |
My comment was in reference to the school scheduling things for students after classes.
A riot to me is more of a societal issue where all walks of life are up in arms about some issue. A curfew might be protested and get out of hand, but I wouldn't call it a riot. Perhaps, the Chinese way of protesting has to surpass polite picketing to drive home the importance of whatever they are upset about.
Recently, I had to kick up a storm just to get computers to adequately right click and launch an image. Since then, I have had no problems but I had to go to what I feel are extremes just to get basic functioning working on their computers.
As a side note, I was trying to look up this "riot", and I found there were protests regarding the war in Iraq. So, I don't know if the curfew was in result of that or why they made a 10:30pm curfew. It's 11pm here and was 11pm when I studied a few weeks in central Shanghai.
Again, I don't know how that relates to the teacher's performance in the classroom, but it was apparently something that hasn't changed things nationwide other than extending the curfew 30 minutes. |
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RPMcMurphy
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 90
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| I think we're talking at cross purposes. I see a riot as a violent disturbance, which this was, although its unlikely to be on You Tube. You were speaking of "ticking time bombs": also hyperbole perhaps? The topic is about what Chinese students expect of students, not classroom performance, and how you feel about those expectations. |
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chinatimes
Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| The topic is about what Chinese students expect of students, not classroom performance, and how you feel about those expectations. |
Before the student can expect something (I think you meant of the teacher not students), we have to know what the class is meant to provide.
It starts with:
1. School making a curriculum
2. A teacher providing an asset to the curriculum
3. A student expecting those assets to pay off
The student's expectations should only be addressed after we have a clear understanding of what should be expected, not what the customer is going to order when the wheels are already in motion. By then, it's too late. Either drop out or stay on board. |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| RPMcMurphy wrote: |
| Quite possibly Chris. I got it from Language Teacher Research in Asia, Ed. Thomas Farrell, TESOL.Inc.2006 |
Ah, cheers.
I just did a search for the article I had in mind. It's an article in Volume 41, Issue 4 (December 2007) of TESOL Quarterly titled "Conceptions of a Good Tertiary EFL Teacher in China" (pages 781-790) by Zhang Qunying and David Watkins. I highly recommend this article.
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
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