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ChinaOrBust
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 1
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 Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:37 am Post subject: English First, newbie questions |
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Hi, I'm considering work in China for English First and just have a couple questions someone could probably answer easily.
The basic background of my situation is that here in Saskatchewan, Canada I went to a small meeting about teaching english abroad, and this fellow conducting the ordeal had a deal with the government to collect 20 canadian kids such as myself and allow us to teach in various public schools in Nanjing, 2 teachers per school i believe. Time progressed and his numbers didn't get as high as they needed to be, I believe he only found about 10-15 prospective teachers, so the deal with the government fell through.
He then has an alternative, as a woman in china who is part of his hiring organization they started also happens to be a Director at an English First school in Jinan. We would be starting a lot earlier, but would be making more money than we would be with the government.
Now I've heard English First is great but the main concern is that they work you to the bone (i.e. 40hr work week) Yet the English First contract i was given stipulates that I will only have to work a maximum of 20 hrs per week, and anything after that is considered overtime. I believe i will be teaching young children, and the man setting this entire thing up says English First provides adequate training beforehand and that it isn't very difficult work at all. I'm just basically asking for thoughts and opinions on this matter, as I am really looking forward to going to China and so far this deal sounds great. Please let me know if you think it is too good to be true, if really curious you could reply and let me know and i'd be glad to e-mail a copy of the contract I have incase it happens to be a sham or something? Any thoughts or ideas would be very helpful, thanks.
-Scot McLeod |
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Taiping04
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 188
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:14 am Post subject: |
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Use the search facility at the top of the page. You should find hundreds of EF related posts; some glowing testimonies, some not .
Read carefully. |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Does it say "work" 20 hours a week, "teach" 20 hours a week, or something "else"? Chinese contracts are tricky, especially for the uninitiated, so go over it with a fine toothed comb. |
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stavrogin2001
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 92
Location: Liaoning
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 10:42 am Post subject: |
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A lot of school will say 20 "class hours" but they also demand other prep time and this is all unpaid. I was working at Searich in Dalian where my contracted hours were 20 a week, but was made to have 9-5 office hours and if I left at 5 I was looked at like I was not doing a very good job and not dedicated enough.
When signing a contract I always ask, especially with private schools about the office hours required and extra work like progress reports and such that need to be done. This can be quite taxing work and you will not recieve a fen for it. |
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been_there
Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 284
Location: 127.0.0.1
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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the 20 hours are teaching hours only. EF contracts are for 40 hours, 6 days a week.
READ THE CONTRACT CAREFULLY |
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moonraven
Joined: 24 Mar 2004
Posts: 3094
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Stay away from EF. The recruiters are just after warm bodies--and they don't even have to be all that warm. You will have no time to experience China if you work for those folks. |
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Ludwig
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 1096
Location: 22� 20' N, 114� 11' E
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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'ChinaOrBust', if you do indeed ever find a job that pays overtime for over and above 20 hours a week then please do give me a shout as I will be there in a flash!
| ChinaOrBust wrote: |
| [...] a woman in china [sic] who is part of his hiring organization they started also happens to be [...] |
I had to indulge myself in a little chuckle at this one, 'ChinaOrBust'.
Things rarely, if ever, simply 'happen to be' anything anywhere in the world; especially not in a state such as China.
As regards your 20 hours comment, although I do not know anything from first hand experience of that (in)famous firm you mention, I have heard much from many; some superlative, some quite horrific. Also, I know that if you have been offered a 20-hour post then it can not be a legal full-time post as this does not meet the minimum number of hours required for such a post! Thus, unless this is a part-time position (which means you would not be able to secure a visa for it) the contract is simply not accurate.
I do hope you do not na�vely believe that only time actually in a classroom constitutes 'work'. It may surprise you to learn that the figure you quote most likely refers to 'contact' hours. In addition to this you will have to prepare for these classes. This will most likely entail you having to create resources. You will also have to attend promotional events and will have to conduct placement tests for prospective students. You will most likely also have to give English Corners and the like. According to the folks I know who have in the past worked for this outfit even if there is nothing to do they will still make you sit in the office for 40 hours (in your Sunday best) simply to ensure that you do not work for anyone else in that time. However, as this would be summer, I do not think you would suffer from low contact hours (especially if you are to conduct lessons for young learners; the current boom market on the mainland).
Some of the people I know who have worked for this firm on the mainland in summer claim that they have often been scheduled for up to 40 contact hours a week with only about 30% of the hours over and above their contracted hours being paid in overtime, as in fact, not all their weekly hours fell into one contracted week but rather were split into two weeks (thus drastically reducing the amount to be considered as overtime).
You must be very careful with the contract; do 'pay periods' and 'lesson periods' overlap? If not then not all 'overtime' will count. That is, will your day-off (as I understand it you only get one day-off a week with that firm on the mainland) serve to break an otherwise lucrative stretch of overtime?
Is there a maximum number of hours you can be scheduled to work in a single day stated in the contract, or does it merely refer to a weekly maximum? If it states that work can be scheduled from between 9am and 9pm or something akin to this then you can not complain if that is what you get! Also, at what rate is this 'overtime' to be paid? Do not necessarily expect double or triple pay.
In the following EF China fact sheet I found on-line here,
http://www.englishfirst.com/teacherinfo/recruitment/country/China_Teacher_Factsheet.doc
it states (pp.1-2) that "Contracts are for 40-hours per week, including 36 academic hours of teaching (24 real hours). One academic hour is forty minutes plus a five-minute break. Hours of work will mirror those of similar local schools and will almost certainly involve working in the morning and in the evening as well as the weekends with one and a half days off. (typically [sic] Monday or Friday). During the summer and winter peak periods teachers receive one day a week off. In peak periods, teachers can be asked to work up to 43.5 academic hours (29 real hours) of teaching and will receive overtime payment (see contract for conditions)."
29 real hours a week is absolutely outrageous and, if it is all with kids, then it is nothing short of horrifying (note also that the contract must be consulted for full conditions pertaining to overtime payments; there is going to be a lot of angry and tired people this summer!). I do not think you would be doing much on your day-off save for sleeping and recovering. Note also that there are references to, among other things, "courses conducted in local primary and middle schools" which "should follow a set curriculum and have a maximum of 25-30 students per class" (I love that instance of 'should'). There are references to "alternative teaching duties for academic programs held at the franchise school, such as tutoring sessions, conversation clubs and demonstration lessons for prospective students", and also, "regular social and marketing activities for the students, which you will be expected to participate in. Some examples are open houses, parties, educational booths at fairs and English competitions. Teachers will also get the chance to participate and lead some skills-sharing seminars with native English-speaking and non-native English speaking colleagues."
Sounds like a lot of work to me, even with their spin of 'you will get the chance to' (note that it does not state, for example, 'You will get paid for�'). What are they offering? I hope at least 5,000 RMB a week!
Last edited by Ludwig on Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Taiping04
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 188
Location: East of Aden
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| As regards your 20 hours comment, although I do not know anything from first hand experience of that (in)famous firm you mention, I have heard much from many; some superlative, some quite horrific. |
Nothing from first hand experience? As if! Good thing this forum doesn't have an inbuilt lie-detector. Pull the other one, Bertie/Ludwig. |
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Giantbudwiser
Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 138
Location: The wrong side of the world
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:39 am Post subject: |
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A quick story about what happened to a friend of mine at Chongqing EF.
A Canadian girl decided to sign her life away to EF for 40 hours a week for only 4500. That particular school pissed off some authorities in the city so they could not give Z visas in the city but needed to send their FT to Hong Kong to process the visa. The poor girl after arriving and was so broke could not afford the visa trip but EF promised to pay for the trip and all expenses. After she got back and worked for a few months always balking to EF "when am I gonna get paid?" they delayed her then outright said " you owe us all this money and we want you to work for us for free" They kept her residents permit and are refusing return it without paying back all of the money......After hearing her teary tale the only thing I could say is "Sucks to be you". Long story short; stay away from EF there are lots of other jobs that pay alot more for less hours and wont screw you over any chance they can. |
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RVN
Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 62
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| My job has overtime for more than 20 hours a week. Is it really that rare?EF's are all franchises, some will be good, some will bad, and some will be worse than that. |
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Captain Yossarian
Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 385
Location: Dongbei
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:46 am Post subject: EF in Jinan |
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| I stayed a while in Jinan last year when I went to an Educational Conference for Shandong Province. One thing I discovered is that in Jinan there are several Aston English Schools that have a supurb reputation with the government and the teachers I met praised the set-up they were offered. They have a much better reputation than EF in Jinan, though some of that may have to do with the fact that they are simply so much bigger. I think there are 30 foreign teachers at Aston in Jinan and I've never heard any bad things about the schools they have there. |
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Ludwig
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 1096
Location: 22� 20' N, 114� 11' E
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| RVN wrote: |
| My job has overtime for more than 20 hours a week. Is it really that rare? |
'RVN', we are referring to total hours; not contact hours. |
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TEAM_PAPUA
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1679
Location: HOLE
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:54 pm Post subject: incredible |
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I work for an EF franchise here in China & it definitely seems that despite all the horror stories I have fallen flat on my feet. I was lucky as two of my friends who I knew from Indonesia came over here first and then introduced me to the school. I currently teach one class per day 3 days per week, then three classes on both saturday & sunday. Total: 9 classes per week off-peak & 12 classes per week peak/intensive. We work a 5 day week.
We have no office hours to speak of, simply come in before our lessons, plan then go. I spend my days mountain biking, going to the gym, watching movies etc. etc. etc. Nobody cares where we are or what we are doing as long as we turn up and teach. This may be due to the fact that we are all experienced teachers and have good reputations with our students (we did have a few newbies come through from the EF Shanghai Sausage Factory - but they didn't last (see my other post regarding fireworks in the apartment).
We also have no dress code, casual but smart is fine. NO TIES.
All franchises are different & I believe if you are fortunate to get a good DOS you are halfway there.
To the OP, if you need anymore advice feel free to PM me.  |
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Norman Bethune
Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 731
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: English First, newbie questions |
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| Quote: |
Hi, I'm considering work in China for English First and just have a couple questions someone could probably answer easily.
The basic background of my situation is that here in Saskatchewan, Canada I went to a small meeting about teaching english abroad, and this fellow conducting the ordeal had a deal with the government to collect 20 canadian kids such as myself and allow us to teach in various public schools in Nanjing, 2 teachers per school i believe. Time progressed and his numbers didn't get as high as they needed to be, I believe he only found about 10-15 prospective teachers, so the deal with the government fell through.
He then has an alternative, as a woman in china who is part of his hiring organization they started also happens to be a Director at an English First school in Jinan. We would be starting a lot earlier, but would be making more money than we would be with the government. |
This situation is so obviously a bait and switch scam. The recruiter probably used the government angle as a lure to dupe people into attending meetings. Then, whammo, the deal with "the government fall through" but he has an alternative.
| Quote: |
| Now I've heard English First is great |
You sure didn't hear it on this forum. Opinion on Dave's seems to run in the opposite direction.
| Quote: |
| but the main concern is that they work you to the bone (i.e. 40hr work week) Yet the English First contract i was given stipulates that I will only have to work a maximum of 20 hrs per week, and anything after that is considered overtime. |
EF defines work in so many different ways to confuse, that even if you do begin to understand what the franchisee means, he will arbitrarily change the terms of your contract. Teaching hours, class prep time, demo lessons, are all work; however in most cases EF only pays for time you work in an actual class.
| Quote: |
| I believe i will be teaching young children, and the man setting this entire thing up says English First provides adequate training beforehand and that it isn't very difficult work at all. |
Chinese one brat policy kids are not like kids anywhere else. They are not easy to teach, nor is it easy to meet the demands of their parents who will constantly demand that you magically make little Jiang speak english.
| Quote: |
| I'm just basically asking for thoughts and opinions on this matter, as I am really looking forward to going to China and so far this deal sounds great. Please let me know if you think it is too good to be true, |
This is China...anything you hear about it before you arrive will always be too good to be true. English First in China is one of the worst places to work. I suggest you try public universities...anywhere, and you'll get a better job than any EF could offer.
| Quote: |
| if really curious you could reply and let me know and i'd be glad to e-mail a copy of the contract I have incase it happens to be a sham or something? Any thoughts or ideas would be very helpful, thanks. |
-Scot McLeod[/quote]
No need to email the contract. Contracts in China do not mean the same as a contract in Canada. In Canada, the words have actual force and may be interpreted by the courts impartially. In China, a contract isn't worth the ink it's printed with. A chinese contract will always be on the Chinese persons side. You will always lose...especially when you have no legal recourse as a foreigner to sue.
[/quote] |
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TEAM_PAPUA
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1679
Location: HOLE
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:04 am Post subject: ? |
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I guess that you didn't read my post?
I'm not defending EF as their reputation is generally bad wherever you go but I've had a good experience & fortunately had it very easy as I am in the 'they need me more than I need them' position. I have no doubt that once our school develops it will become more demanding, but at the moment, due to our DOS, it is a very easy place to work. Granted, if the running of the school was left up to the Chinese owner & director we would be shafted. (our contract states all the usual and if we had to do it all life would be undearable)
I would stay clear of EF, but anyone considering an easy first year could do worse than teach at my school. For me it's been an 8 month vacation with the occasional class to teach
ALWAYS try to get direct email contacts for teachers at any school you are considering applying for - hopefully they will be truthful and tell you how things really are as these contracts make no sense. |
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