Job Discussion Forums

[ntropy]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040602.wsaudi0602/BNStory/Front/

[johnslat]

Dear ntrophy,
A bit strange that this story doesn't seem to make any mention that the Americans were military personnel.
The one I read on Yahoo this morning certainly did.
Regards,
John

[ntropy]

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/06/saudi.media.killed/index.html

[johnslat]

Dear ntrophy,
But that's a different incident/story, isn't it? The first story was about military personnel, I'm pretty sure - no one killed, one "wounded", according to what I read.
Regards,
John

[johnslat]

And now, of course, there's yet another "incident", the American employeee of Vinnell, who was murdered in Riyadh.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2004/06/08/embassy_american_shot_in_saudi_arabia?mode=PF

Regards,
John

[Bindair Dundat]

Sounds like the family *ahem* thinks they have things well in hand:

"We are at war with these terrorists. There is no chance that they will succeed because the collective will of the Saudi people rejects their goals," the prince said.

Seems to me like the terrorists have already enjoyed substantial success.

BD

[johnslat]

Dear Bindair Dundat,
And yet - the more I think about it, the more inclined I am to see the terrorists as at least as much a boon to the House of Saud as they are a threat - maybe more of a boon, in fact. I believe the vast majority of Saudis are not in sympathy with the terrorists, and so, even those who are not exactly enamored of the ruling family may well see the Royals as the only viable alternative in the current situation.
Ironically enough, all this turmoil MAY actually strenghten the current government, rather than destabilize it.
Regards,
John

[Tom Cat]

Was Robert C. Jacobs, the Vinnell employee, an English teacher?

[johnslat]

Dear Tom Cat,
None of the stories I've read have specifically identified what he was doing at Vinnell. They all say this, or something much like it:

"The victim was identified as Robert C. Jacobs, 62, of Murphysboro, Ill., a seven-year employee of Vinnell, a subsidiary of Northrop Grumman Corp., said Northrop spokeswoman Janis Lamar. "

But they do mention that he chose to live off the compound.

"Vinnell, which has several dozen Americans in the kingdom training Saudi security forces, maintains a secure residential compound for its employees, but the victim chose not to live there, McCaffrey said."

Regards,
John

[ntropy]

Sorry, John, you misunderstood. Yes, it was a separate incident. I added it because it's continuing and will continue. If I were there (and I almost was in Yanbu .... this close to taking a job there) I'd be looking for an exit strategy. This will get worse.

I don't have the link but I read a news story yesterday about a Saudi academic who just released a poll of the Saudi population and 50% felt sympathy for OBL and only 39% supported the KSA military, a lower number that expressed suppport for the US military.

[johnslat]

Dear ntrophy,

Attitudes must have changed a lot since last July then:

"A new poll of citizens in Saudi Arabia reveals that they reject the international acts of terror claimed by Osama bin Laden as not consistent with the values of the Saudi people, nor with the values of Islam.

The survey of 600 Saudi citizens was commissioned by the Arab American Institute of Washington, DC, as part of an on-going study of Saudi attitudes. It was conducted during July, and has a margin of error of +/- 4.1%. Previous polling was done in February, March, and April of 2002.

Saudis are nearly unanimous (95%) in their belief that Bin Laden's claimed actions are not consistent with their values, and 88% say the actions are not consistent with the values of Islam. More than nine in ten (94%) feel the actions have harmed both the Kingdom and the people of Saudi Arabia.

Nearly all (99%) agree that the May 12, 2003 terrorist attacks on the expatriate compound in Riyadh are not consistent with the values of Saudis or with the values of Islam, and 93% agree that the attacks have harmed the Kingdom and the people of Saudi Arabia.

More than eight in ten (83%) say Osama bin Laden does not speak for them or their family. They are unanimous (100%) in the belief of respect for human life, and more than nine in ten (93%) say innocent citizens did not deserve to die in the World Trade Center attack.

More than nine in ten (91%) say the people of Saudi Arabia have no quarrel with the people of the United States, yet their overall impression of the American people is 70% unfavorable, 24% favorable. Last year, the sentiment was 51% unfavorable, 43% favorable.

More than nine in ten (94%) say they have an unfavorable impression of American policy toward the Palestinians, up from the 2002 unfavorable rating of 87%. This year, 81% have an unfavorable impression of American policy toward their neighbor, Iraq.

American education and science and technology are more highly regarded by the Saudi people, with 70% saying they have a favorable impression of US education (up from last year's 58% favorable), and 62% holding favorable impressions of science and technology, down from the 2002 favorable rating of 71%.

Other attributes of American life are not viewed as favorably by the Saudis. More than half (55%) have an unfavorable impression of American movies and television, compared to 41% who say it's favorable. That's a reversal of 2002's 54% favorable, 42% unfavorable impressions.

A majority (51%) has an unfavorable impression of American-made products, compared to 28% who say their impression is favorable. Last year, 53% viewed American products favorably, with 44% saying 'unfavorable.'

They are split on their impression of American freedom and democracy, with 44% saying they have an unfavorable impression and 40% saying 'favorable.' In 2002 polling, 52% had favorable impressions, and 44% said their impression was unfavorable.

Nearly nine in ten (87%) say their personal finances are of greatest importance to them, followed by employment opportunities (65%), the Arab-Israeli conflict (19%), political reform (16%), terrorism (12%), and Iraq (9%).

More than nine in ten (91%) watch satellite television, and nearly two-thirds (63%) have Internet access. Nearly half (47%) say they read a daily newspaper, and 12% say they read two. Four in ten (40%) do not read a newspaper.

More than four in ten (43%) of those interviewed attended college, and 16% attended a technical school. Three in ten (30%) completed a secondary education.

The survey was conducted by in-person interviews in the principal areas of Riyadh, Jeddah, Damman, and Abha by Zogby's Lebanese partner, Information International, SAL, and tabulated by Zogby International. "

But polls - does anyone place much confidence in them anymore, anyway?

Regards,
John

[johnslat]

Dear Tom Cat,
From the Arab News (or, as a friend likes to call it, the Arab Snooze):

"Jacobs, 63, was an employee of Vinnell Corp., a subsidiary of Northrop Grumman Corp. He lived in Saudi Arabia for seven years, where he trained the National Guard in graphic design. �He was training people, but not in warfare,� Mrs. Jacobs explained to her local newspaper."

Regards,
John

[ntropy]

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/08/poll.binladen/index.html

There's the link I saw that in. I got it slightly wrong re: US military but the basic support for OBL is allegedly there, but not for political control

[Tom Cat]

[quote="johnslat"]
"A new poll of citizens in Saudi Arabia reveals that they reject the international acts of terror claimed by Osama bin Laden as not consistent with the values of the Saudi people, nor with the values of Islam.
<snip>
The survey was conducted by in-person interviews in the principal areas of Riyadh, Jeddah, Damman, and Abha by Zogby's Lebanese partner, Information International, SAL, and tabulated by Zogby International. "
[/quote]

Thanks for the info John. It was interesting. But, I have to admit I laughed a bit. Just imagine, in the Magic Kingdom, land of free speech and free thinking, you're an average Ahmed coming out of the supermarket when some Lebanese guy comes up to you and asks if you support Osama bin Laden....

[johnslat]

Dear Tom Cat,
I know - although I suppose having a Lebanese guy approach you might be slightly less likely to put up your guard than having, say, an American do so.
Getting a "reliable" poll in the Kingdom about such matters- well, that strikes me as being an oxymoron.
However, I still think that most Saudis are against the bombings and shootings. For some, this attitude may not, perhaps, arise out of any great love for the House of Saud or even for the "non-Muslims" who reputedly are the main targets, but simply because such actions make their own lives less secure and might also affect their own livelihoods.
And, I'd say, this belief is supported by the poll that ntrophy posted, though, as mentioned earlier, polls - especially on these topics - need to be taken with many grains of salt.
Regards,
John