Job Discussion Forums

[Ben Round de Bloc]

[moonraven]

Speaking as an indigenous person, I can say that the biggest blast of racism here in Mexico is aimed at indigenous people. And that was reinforced in 2001 with the disgraceful "countereform" that denied indigenous people autonomy and respect for their customs and traditions. All you have to do is glance at the media--t.v. and magazines, and you will not see dark-skinned people representing products. Barbie is very big here in Mexico....

The US was relatively successful at practicing genocide against indigenous people when they wanted their land and natural resources--so they don't receive the proportion of racial hatred aimed at blacks, for example.

[lozwich]

Thankfully not through any experiences of my own, simply through observations, I agree with Moonraven.

On a slightly connected note, I tried to introduce the idea of multiculturalism to my students one day, only to be met with blank looks. Then when I talked about the population demographics of my country (Australia) and the treatment of indigenous people they were kind of interested, but in a very abstract way. I honestly think the kinds of issues and problems surrounding multicultural societies simply had never occurred to them.

L.

[Gringo Greg]

[saraswati]

I find that many Mexicans are racist/classist. "Morenos" are considered uneducated, uncouth, low-class. You hear it in comments. You see it in people's actions yet when the topic of racism is discussed. People are quick to say that that only happens in the States. Many here define racism via the States' historic terms of it...slavery, sit at the back of the bus or stand etc. They don't see the more subtle forms of it.

I once brought up the subject of how on ranches in Chiapas, workers weren't paid in cash but rather with "fichas" that could only be exchanged at the store on the ranch. How did students respond? Well...true to form (or cognitive dissonance), they justified the ranchers' actions by saying that the workers would probably only spend their money on alcohol otherwise!

[MELEE]

I think the "dynamics are different" is a very good way of putting it.

Sometimes, those of us from the outside are confused, baffeled, outraged, revolted, etc. by what we see. Whether or not we should be, or just chalk it up to cultral differences, is a nother topic! (and an interesting one).

Here are some observations I've collected-I'll try to leave editorial comments out.

Whitening skin cream is available here, though it is easy to find other types of lotion.

Nearly all television personalities are white--the only dark haired and olive skinned person to ever be on BigBrother was the first person voted out.

Dark skinned people don't seem to be bothered by the lack of dark skinned people on TV.

Hair bleach and hair dye in light colors are big sellers.

When I'm not in Oaxaca, people make one of two comments when I tell them I live in Oaxaca--either, you're so lucky Oaxaca is "precioso" or you know the rest of Mexico is not like Oaxaca, Oaxaca is full of indians.

People think racism is about black-versus white, since there are very few blacks in Mexico, there must be very little racism in Mexico. (This was the attitude I encountered in Chile as well)

I've been told you need to be careful with "Carribeans" because they are untrustworthly--in the situation, the person was obviously referring to black carribeans.

My husband is often mistaken for my employee (servant).

My mother-in-law is afraid of going into the bank alone, because she assumes that she will be cheated. And I have seen evidence that women, who always wear skirts, plastic shoes, braid their hair and use shawls are mistreated (not necessiarily cheated, but treated like they are stupid) by bank employees.

A girl from my mother-in-law's village came to live in my house while she attened junior high school in town. Two weeks later she returned to her village, unable to withstand the taunts her classmates gave her for her accent (Spanish is her second langauge).

My husband does not speak his mother's native language because his mom thought she was doing what was best for him and sparing him from situations like the one above.

"La India Maria" a comedian from the 70s and 80s continues to be hugely popular, especially among the population her comedy mocks.

I could go on, but I thought first I'd try to just put down some observations and try not to editorialize. (some slipped in there, I know)

[thelmadatter]

While I suppose it could be considered "positive" (?), I am starting to find this annoying.

I have started dating. Like everywhere else, Ive found some nice guys, some not-so-nice guys and a few that just make me want to scratch my head. One thing that I am running across with most, if not all of the guys I have met so far (that does NOT mean Ive dated half of Mexico! lol) are really taken with my green eyes and just love to call me "guerita" as a term of affection/compliment.

Funny thing is, Im olive-toned not the typical white.

Its getting old but I hesistate to say anything cause I know it is the culture.

[MELEE]

[lozwich]

At the risk of repeating myself (I think I said this in response to a different post, or maybe I've just ranted a lot about this particular theme..), I often get asked 'Where in the US are you from?' by prospective suitors. When I tell them that I'm Australian, often they're suddently not interested anymore, like my 'beauty' has gone flying out the window. Funny that.

Also, I was in a bar one night and this guy sent drinks over to my table (after asking permission, of course). I was taken over to be introduced to him, because he was sending them to me (the only foreign woman at the table) and he acted so grateful and honored that I had deigned to accept drinks from someone such as he, and then go over to say thank you, that I was instantly turned off. I don't know where that came from, but I had the scary feeling that it had something to do with my foreigner status, and his quite dark skin. He even said to my chaperone that he couldn't ask me out because he was very busy with work, etc etc, but just wanted to buy me and my friends drinks.

And I know I'm not that cute!!

Best of luck with the dating thang Ms. Datter!

Lozwich.

[Ben Round de Bloc]

Based on my limited experience in one little corner of Mexico and my limited little life here, regarding -ists, I see locals as being much more classist than racist.

I do hear racially stereotypical comments from time to time, although they're usually said without malice. For example, a saying (translated) that I've head a lot is I work like a black man to live like a white man. Some locals use the terms indio or naco to refer to someone who acts ignorant, uneducated, and ill-mannered. To be Chinese/Asian is to be cheap. There are huge advertising billboards currently running ads for cheap prices using a picture of a Chinese person with the Spanish caption spelled so that it's pronounced with a Chinese accent.

Although the majority of this city's population has predominately indigenous features, there are so many different races and mixtures of races that it's much easier to be classist than racist. Even though indigenous people tend to compose most of the lower socio-economic classes, among them there are individuals who are gueros (lighter skin color and blue/green eyes,) chinos (SE Asian features,) and morenos (darker skin.) One can find people who look the same as all of those among the upper socio-economic classes as well. As I see it, discrimination is based more on how one acts, talks, and dresses, what his surnames are, and which neighborhood (affluent or poor) he lives in rather than on his racial characteristics.

[Gringo Greg]

You said it Ben, classist. I won't add anything else.

[MELEE]

In my part of the country, race and class lines are still the same. The upper class are tall and white, the middle class(also the merchant class) are mestizos, and the lower class are short, generally rotund, and brown. They also speak a different language.

[MixtecaMike]

[moonraven]

A lot of racism and/or xenophobia is unconscious--and that is why it is both difficult to eradicate and lethal to any concept of positive globalization. Here in southern Mexico where I live local folks are not used to seeing many people from out of the area--so they also apply xenophobic behavior to people from other states in Mexico. In my case, I have had to explain to a number of people in stores and in the mercado precisely how they are offending me by acting in a racist and xenophobic manner. Most of them were really not aware that their comments that implied that I was a person of privilege were based on racist and xenophobic stereotypes, and most apologized profoundly once they were aware of what they were doing.

Assumptions are pernicious everywhere--and in Latin America they are sometimes complicated. I was in Caracas, Venezuela, a little over a year ago as an international guest at a political event. The morning of the opening of the event I was sitting and talking in the main auditorium with a journalist from Spain. A couple of the organizers came up to me and asked me about another guest--apparently a gringa--someone I had never heard of and so certainly knew nothing of her whereabouts. The writer from Spain asked them why they thought I would know, and that if this event had been taking place in Europe no one would have assumed that I was from the US, but would have applied the ethnic stereotype for Swedish or Norwegian....(And I am an indigenous person from a Canadian tribe....)

When my daughter was growing up I gave her "Sasha" dolls (dolls with a darker than white skin but no specific ethnic characteristics which are produced in Germany) for Christmas and birthdays, and she bought some on her own as she grew into adolescence. They are collectors' items, but she keeps them because of what they represent. My 7 year old very brown skinned "niece" in Morelos is making a collection of Barbies--and I have to force myself to bite my tongue every time she takes them out of their trunk to play with them.

[Ben Round de Bloc]

I personally find this to be an interesting topic, and I appreciate the responses to my original post on this thread. As James/Santiago pointed out previously, the dynamics of racism are different, and it's not always easy for us as foreigners to understand what's going on.

Just as MELEE tried (a little unsuccessfully ) to leave out her own editoralizing, I also try to avoid editorializing . . . and not always successfully either, I might add. Admittedly, there are lots of things I don't yet understand about racism/classism in this society, and I probably never will. Some personal observations only add to my confusion instead of making things clearer in my mind. The following are just a few examples of many:

~ I share my house with three young men from a village in Campeche. They're brothers from the same family, look typically indigenous, and speak Maya as their first language. Not infrequently locals who've come to my house have asked if they were my sons.

~ In Yucatan, it seems that one factor (maybe the only factor?) that truly separates races is religion. Here even the class system doesn't completely do that. Menonites (and maybe to some degree Mormons?) seem to be the only long-term inhabitants of Yucatan that appear to remain racially non-mixed. I haven't figured out if Menonites, who are most definitely white, are subjected to racism or not.

~ There's a big push going on to learn to speak Maya. The government offers free Maya language classes. Some local language schools offer classes in Maya. Locals who don't speak Maya as their first language pride themselves on the fact that they know some words and phrases in the language. A local TV station broadcasts the news in Maya. Yet, many people who speak Maya as their first language (including my housemates) avoid speaking Maya to each other in public like the plague, because they believe people who overhear them will think they are ignorant and uneducated.