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[justme]

Ok I've been killing time at work reading other countries' forums and can't help but notice that, relatively speaking, there're lot of intelligent, insightful, and extremely helpful people knocking around Turkey-- a far cry from many of the shallow, drunken, wish-I-was-really-an-intellectual-types around this corner of Istanbul. Not referring to anyone in particular, just a little fed up with the local yabancı population...

Anyway, my questions are this: Do any of you, in your opinion, speak Turkish pretty well? Aside from taking lessons, did you do anything outside of the ordinary in order to learn? Can you recommend any books for self-study? I've finished 'Teach Yourself Turkish,' I'm working on 'Practical Turkish' (author Turkish, can't remember his name but it starts off good, then in later units the explanations are inadequate), and I have Geoffrey Lewis' 'Turkish Grammar' as a reference (really interesting for the junior linguist in me to chew on, some of it very useful, much of it not). I've been here for 2+ years and if I compare myself to many other foreigners, especially teachers, I'm doing okay. But I'm not happy/satisfied with it, and I've reached a point where I can understand about 80% of what's said directly to me (unless they're from the Black Sea-- can't get by that accent!), but my speaking and reading are lacking.

Part of the problem is the range of everyday vocabulary I'm exposed to-- most educated Turks I know speak English, and the people I talk to in daily life introduce a pretty limited range of conversation. Plus, I'm shy and a little asocial, not one to initiate or contribute much to conversations with strangers, Turkish or foreign. Also, I find it really difficult to find women who don't speak English to just sit and chat with, and I'm a bit hesitant to hang out and chat all day with restaurant guys. Actually, that's another question I have-- do any of the women out there find themselves lagging in Turkish compared with their male counterparts? What I mean is, I've noticed foreign men have an easier time just hanging out and chatting with the Turkish guys that work different places, but these same Turkish guys, if they're nice, are more reserved about how much they'll talk with women and what they'll talk about, or, if they're not nice...well, enough said. My men friends that are making any effort to learn Turkish have a much wider vocabulary than I do, including slang, swear words, and idioms, and it comes from being able to relax and talk with men, and there are just more men out working and on the street here. Just wondering if the women have any new ideas for me (the dating-men-who-don't-speak-English-strategy is out now that I'm engaged, though I'd say that's where a majority of my language came from .

So I try to read newspapers, though as you know much of what's in them is pablum that doesn't pique my interest and motivate me to work hard at it. I spend a couple of hours a week talking with my fiance's mom (a new development that's helping a little-- in fact it's because of being brought into his family that I'm suddenly worried that my Turkish isn't enough and I felt really bad that I couldn't understand the part of the engagement ceremony where my stand-in mother agreed to give me away). I try to push conversations into Turkish with people whose English is limited. The only Turkish TV I can stand is Sineturk cuz those old films are hilarious (has anyone seen D�nyası Kurtaran Adam,' by the way? You'll piss yourself...).

And that's it. I'm thinking of taking lessons though I don't have much faith in Turkish teachers, and Turkish is more expensive han English!), but I thought I'd put the bait out for ideas to help a medium-lazy learner of Turkish who writes too-long, rambling messages.... Thanks in advance.[/i]

[yaramaz]

I've been struggling too, after two years here. It's a bit embarrassing to not be more fluent after this amount of time. I also have the Teach Yourself Turkish and A Practical Course in Turkish books, which I have worked through a few times-- but I will admit that they only make me feel confident in writing that a certain cinema is clean and cheap and that the school is new and close. My reading and listening comprehension varies between nil and 75% depending on the subject, how many people are talking and how fast, and where they are from. I still have a hard time understanding the Kayseri accent because they swallow and whine through a lot of their syllables. I can speak with a fairly accurate pronunciation but I'm constantly worrying that I'm assembling the sentence order incorrectly or using the wrong suffixes. I would love to take a formal intro course just to correct my possibly incorrectly-learned quirks before they become ingrained.

It is hard to practise speaking because my Turk friends all want to speak English... I guess they find my limited scope in Turkish boring. Most of the Turks I am friends with speak excellent English and would prefer an intelligent conversation in English to a stammering and stilted one in Turkish.

Also, I think it is easier for men to practise turkish casually--- there are a lot more people out there for them to practise with! The cafes and okey salonus etc are chock a block with men. Here in Kayseri, however, women arent very visible in public. I'd have to knock on strangers' doors to find them. If I talk to men they often think I want to sleep with them. Sigh. I have pretty competant practical turkish though-- giving directions to taxi drivers, answering the phone at school, ordering pizza, asking if the new weekly guardian has arrived yet, etc. I can listen in on meetings and grasp most of it though I find it hard to contribute thoughtfully. Conversations in my department are often surreally bilingual- the turkish teachers speak to me in Turkish and I reply in a melange of Turklish.

I am trying though, and I've achieved a lot in the last two years without much help from anyone. Lots of listening, guessing, looking up in dictionary, etc. It's starting to come together though.

[dmb]

I learned Turkish by living in a small village of 2000 people. It was about 12 years ago so I guess it is bigger noow(Akcay). As I was the only the yabanci living there I had no choice. Submersion technique is the answer

[Wildcat]

I have been in your shoes. This is what I do. #1 Always listen to the TV or radio in the background around the house. #2 Where ever you go bring a notebook and a pocket Turkish/English dictionary, write down words/phrases you don't know, look them up and #3 study them in the evening. #4. Hang out with Turks and only speak Turkish. Ask them to correct your Turkish. #5 Make sure you have a good grammar book, that pocket Turkish/English dictionary for walking around with, and a more extensive one at home. #6 Buy DVDs and watch in English but Turkish subtitles. After watching the same DVD a few times, turn off the sound and just watch the subtitles. Yes it is a little fast, but that is why they invented a remote control. #7 Walk around town. Make sure you can read every sign you come across, if not, look it up, write it down and study! #8 When watching TV, watch childrens programs. They speak slower and simpler. When you get past this level try day time soaps, they don't talk about physics, mostly day to day stuff. #9 Try itiraf.com. (itiraf=confession). This is a web sight with a bunch of confessions on it. It can be difficult, but a nice change of pace. You will be surprised at what some people say.
I lived in Turkey for 4 years and I did these things. I understood about 99% of spoken turkish and 90% or written (Only 70% of the newspaper though). They key is to have as many different types of input as possible. I am returning soon and yes I am already back into my old study habits. Good luck. If you have any more questions, please ask.

[justme]

Yeah, we had many hours of giggling over the alleged big-ness, cleanliness and niceness of everything in the 1st 8 units of Practical Turkish. But shortly after that there's a chapter that asks you to translate 'oynamayabılırdı' vs. 'oynamayabılıyordı' vs. 'oynamayabılırıyordı', or something like that-- I don't have the book in front of me. Also how everyone in the book is so extraordinarily polite to each other, like longtime neighbors addressing one another with 'siz,' then extending multiple invitations for coffee and cakes. If I ever write a learn- Turkish book, I would include the more realistic topics of discussion of women having coffee and cake:

a: I've put on so much weight lately, look!
b: Yes, you have put on weight. I'm also getting fatter.
c: My daughter-in-law's sister's friend's co-worker lost a lot of weight but then she gained it back. Fortunately she found some cheap clothes.
a: Oh, have you tried that wonderful new meat restaurant that just opened?
b: I got the best cakes from such and such pasthane....

And so forth. I sat in on this conversation, or some variation thereof, at least 3 times during my enagement party, a somewhat bleak look at the life to come. There was a different kind of cake each time.

I'm dreading when my mom comes here, and the womenfolk start saying how nice and fat she is. Doesn't quite work as a compliment in English.

I'll try the DVD thing, if I can get the TV to myself. I mentioned Sineturk as useful because the Turkish is more authentic (also, like I said, it's often really funny and B movie, plus a lot of weird underlying cultural assumptions...)-- I have a lot of trouble watching dubbed films (though it's more helpful to watch dubbed films I already know in English) because I think the translations are odd, like they've taken the written scripts and translated them into Turkish that's more like written Turkish which makes the sentences overly complex for listening. Also, whatever central casting they use for 'Woman's Voice' for dubbing is horrible! The women are so shrill and nasal and annoying I spend more time hoping they'll get killed already than trying to understand. I won't even go into the fake high-pitched women's voices they use for children...

So it sounds like I'm pretty much doing all that can be done, I may have to break down and shell out for a class after all, if anything just to expand the breadth of topics I can participate in...

Thanks all!

[yaramaz]

One of the things I do, when I can actually grab the channel-changer from the sweaty paws of my covetous flatmate, is watch the lyrics program on Dream. They play English songs and run the Turk translation of lyrics underneath. I do the same thing with CNBC. I watch ER and Seinfeld etc and try to follow the subtitles as much as possible. I've caught a few children's shows, including one that reminds me of Reading Rainbow (the old british one with Geoffrey and that zipper-face and the bear). They are easy to follow.

For all the women out there (thinking about that inane pasta conversation): do you find that Turkish women can be a bit too familiar with your body? I have a yoga class after work and I go with some women from work who are constantly grabbing and discussing my bottom and analysing its dimensions. At lunch they will give me a reproachful look if I eat more than soup or if I have some bread. When I was ill for a week, vomiting and not eating, they complemented me on my weight loss. Sigh. It seems like everyone is on a diet-- and I dont mean a diet for health and well-being. They will eat those bloody Form crackers (I loathe those patronising squealing Form ads!!!!!!!!!) for breakfast, sip at a bowl of soup for lunch, them maaaaaybe have an apple at dinner. After they complete their diet a week or two later they go back to eating a lot. Endless cycle...

[justme]

Ah yes, the Scarlett O'Hara diet-- stuff your face in private and pick at the food in public. All these nauseating bony little things, where the tops of their arms are the same circumference as the bottom because dieting and excercise apparently have nothing to do with one another, no muscle mass to speak of. At least until you're married. After you've snagged yourself a man, it's ok to start eating, hence the newlyweds' 10 kilos. During Ramazan at my old school, it was so depressing, all the receptionists moaning about how hungry they were, but when the fast-breaking spread came out, they would indulge in an egg, a few olives, and a litre of diet coke. Then the baleful glares as I happily ate a normal meal and received such compliments from the men as 'There's a girl who can eat, it's great when women can eat...'

It's weird, the starvation thing, since most Turkish men seem to prefer women with a bit of heft over ones that will break with rough handling...

As to women being overly familiar with others' bodies, the size of my *beep* and how they got they way, as well as what sort of bra I should be wearing, seems to be an acceptable topic of conversation. From what I gather my *beep* are bordering on indecent and need to be contained in stiff padding, painful stays, and anti-gravity cups. And all this time I thought I was normal. American teens struggling with bust excercises and low-self esteem should come here. Except everyone would tell them they're fat.

Then there's shopping here. Half naked in a cramped dressing room that opens to the entire store and the street outside seems to mean open the door widely to check how I'm doing! It took me awhile to understand why Turks shop in packs, it's so someone can guard the door. Like I can find anything in my size anyway. Anything above an American 8 is buyuk beden, and either more expensive or just downright matronly...

Back to learning Turkish, I've been doing the CNBC-E subtitles thing for awhile and I've picked up some good stuff, words and phrases, but unfortunately a lot of it's inaccurate, like they use the least common word for something (Langenscheidt's perhaps?), or a phrase can have a decidedly English structure, not like anyone would say it at all. Or if someone in a 40's movie says the party was lovely and gay, it comes up as 'g�zel ve eş cinsel.' But it's better than nothing. One think I don't understand is why when someone on TV says 'Oh my God' in English, it's always 'Aman Tanrim' and not 'Allahım.' Is the implication that our kafir god is different?

[yaramaz]

Evet, the cnbc-e subtitles can be a bit odd at times (guys: �ocuklar?). Actually most things pertaining to Englishin this country are odd. Have you read many Turkish to English translations? Not only is Turkish grammatically and structurally different from English but also in mood/tone or manner of expression. I read the novel Sound of Fishsteps last year (forget author's name but she is also well regarded author of Mediterranean Waltz) and spent most of the book silently screaming at her because her tone was so schmaltzy and over the top. And this was a serious novel! I have a feeling that it would read quite differently in its original Turkish but the sentiments it expresses are just too over-the-top wordy (keep it simple stupid!). I wish I had it here to quote from. There were some passages that made me choke on my sutlu nescaf�--- one wasthe wussy dopey ditsy protagonist rhapsodising over a man's masterfully vast and masculine belly. Sigh.

Neyse.

Regarding diet and exercise again. On the weekend I walked to the otogar and back when I went to G�reme on Saturday, about 45-50 minutes each way. No big deal, a lovely walk on a lovely day. When I casually mentioned this at lunch to my dieting co-workers they were aghast. It was inconceivable for them to walk 20 minutes to the city centre let alone 45 to the otogar. Also, at the gym I'm the only one who has ever picked up the free weights or changed the stationary bicycle setting beyond level 1. When I move it up to maximum resistance (because I enjoy it) they freak out, saying its far too hard. They will pedal away for 20 minutes on level one then go home happy, having had their workout. Surreal. Oh, and eat their apple for dinner. I suggested to one woman that a salad would bve just as healthy and low-calorie and she said that you must eat salad WITH meat and bread etc so it cant be diet food.

*** wow, that was a meandering, pointless post... Sorry, �ocuklar!

[ghost]

Everything has been said, including watching CNBNC with subtext etc.

Watching the news on a daily basis and the chat shows will help.

Tomer school of languages is the best, and you will learn more Turkish there with a one or two month course there than most ESL teachers learn in Turkey who have been there (in Turkey) for years....guaranteed. Tomer gives you a system and fundamentals that you will not get elsewhere. There are Tomer schools in most major Turkish cities. Prices are very reasonable, such as $230 for an 80 hour course (one month four hours a day). Only Turkish is spoken in class, and it is sink or swim.

It is true that it is harder for foreign women to 'hang out' in places like tea shops and corner stores, compared with foreign men. However, foreign female ESL teachers will have all the pickings when it comes to choosing Turkish men for friendship and more. These female teachers should try to go with male friends who agree to speak in Turkish at least 50% of the time. And if these Turkish guys really appreciate you, they will agree to this....otherwise walk, and find someone else.

The diet Yaramaz describes (one soup for lunch and one apple for supper) is ridiculous and set to fail.

Food intake is related to calorie expenditure, and if you exercise and eat reasonably, there should be no need to put on weight. Since food is psychologically comforting, especially in times of stress, cutting out certain harmful foods is not always easy. One way to avoid eating junk food is to simply not have any within reach. Have a plentiful supply of bananas and oranges in your flats, which will fill your stomachs. A nice glass of 2% hot milk at night is a good way to end the day and help you to sleep. Ghost always finishes the day with 355 ml of beer, but not more. Beer in moderation is healthy and combats fat deposits in the circulatory system.

Turkey is a paradox, because there are plenty of healthy foods available. But at the same time, if you go to those corner stores, you will see a high proportion of junk foods such as cookies (Ulker brands) and sodas and chips (crisps for Brits.). You need to make some healthy choices.

Most Turks lack imagination when it comes to exercise. In towns where there are running tracks, you will see Turks walk around the track hundreds of times, even when they have a nice park beside the track. There is no special benefit of walking around a track like a duck, and it is psychologically boring. When ghost lived in Ankara, he would run round the boating lake in Ulus Park, and then up on the track at the 19 Mayis stadium. The Turkish athletes would be amazed that ghost ventured out to run in such a public place, telling him that athletes should train on the track only...mind boggingly stupid....

[justme]

As to gyms, the one in my uni is great cuz I appear to be the only one who uses it, ever. So it's clean and nothing like the maganda meat market near my house. I just feel sorry for the guy who runs it cuz he seems incredibly bored, and intent on his personal mission to turn me into a body buider. I go between humouring him and trying to hide from him.

I checked itiraf.com, and it's great! Some pervy stuff, but most of it just mundane musings of regular people and I found it comforting that the Turks share some of the same 'things that make you go ***???!!' that have appeared on this forum. Like being less of an outsider. Also the writing is pretty comprehensible, just difficult enough to be useful. Thanks for the tip!