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Declare the pennies on your eyes...
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Qaaolchoura



Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 539
Location: 21 miles from the Syrian border

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt_22 wrote:
It also enforces this by applying a bonafide residency test.

The residency test is irritating. On my first year abroad I was fired about halfway through for stepping on the toes of some Korean coworkers, and thus returned to the US before moving on to a foreign country I actually wanted to be in. Because I hadn't been a resident of a foreign country for the full tax year (even if I claimed to be a Korean resident right up until my residence card expired, I got it on like January 5th or something), I had to make sure to leave the United States within 35 days of my return.

36 days (except on a leap-year), and I'd be on the hook for the income tax for money earned in a foreign country, while a legal resident of the foreign country. My mother calculated that to be only $300, but damned if I was going to pay a penny of that, so I left the US about a month earlier than I wanted to.

~Q
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artemisia



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 875
Location: the world

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taxation requirements are often a murky area. Obviously residency issues must come into play and those don't sound generous, but least the US has set a clear upper limit (earnings not above $95,100 in 2012) that is generous. I definitely don't like the part about having to declare foreign bank accounts with a balance of US$10,000 (equivalent) or higher. In that position, I'd want to keep several accounts with lower amounts of money or have a bank security deposit box to put cash or silver. (Wasn't that in some film: moving amounts of US$9.995 around???). Earnings from various sources is one thing, but I don't see why what one saves is anyone else's business!

Aside from the US, I don�t understand the relationship between countries that have a double tax treaty with a series of other countries when one of those countries may offer a tax free salary. I don�t know if it�s as simple as if you�re not taxed in the country where you earn a salary, but then you will have to pay income tax in the home country. No doubt it depends on the countries in question, but it doesn't seem to be easy to find clear cut information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_treaty#Double_Tax_Relief
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Teacher in Rome



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1286

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tax system described by Mike for Romania sounds very similar to Italy. (For employees of a company.)

If you're a freelancer, it goes something like this:

Invoice 100 Euros
Add on 21% VAT
Taxable income 121 Euros
Automatically deduct 20% for tax
Net income 101 Euros

So far, so good.

At some point next year, the tax authorities will bill you for 20% INPS (NI equivalent). You might also have a regional tax of another 4-5% to pay. So from your net income of 101 euros, you will be left around 75 euros, but of course, in the meantime, you might have had to pay back that VAT you collected on behalf of the state, so perhaps you end up with 55 euros in your pocket once everyone's taken their cut.

If you're like me, the INPS demand came as a bit of a shock, and you couldn't pay it all at once. So you're paying it off in instalments. This has certain advantages: the 20% whack I'm paying off is deducted from my yearly income, reducing my taxable income. (Though of course I've already deducted income tax in my invoices.)

Other things the Italian government like to tax you on:

your house in Italy if you own it
a second house - whether in Italy or abroad (and they will go through records to see if you're a homeowner abroad)
your worldwide income if they know about it - ie if it comes into an Italian bank account / company
your bank accounts abroad (15 euro per bank account per year, plus interest on savings)

Your tax advantages

any other tax you're paying is taken off your taxable income
half of what you pay on your car, petrol, utility bills etc if you work from home (including IVA that you pay on services)
medical costs
insurance / pension contributions

Tax rates in Italy for your common-garden freelancer are one of the highest in the EU.
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HLJHLJ



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 1218
Location: Ecuador

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ixchel wrote:

That's because as a US citizen at any time you choose you will be eligible to receive welfare (AFDC if you have children) or disability as well as other services such as county health care etc.


You can make those claims at any time? Even if you live abroad? So a US citizen can claim US health and welfare benefits whilst living elsewhere? That would certainly change things. The UK has similar arrangements with Europe, but not worldwide.

Ixchel wrote:

So perhaps it seems unfair but on the other hand if you ever come home and need something you'll want people to have paid their taxes.
I'm certainly not a fan of taxes but I understand the need.


I'm not arguing that tax is unnecessary, obviously I understand why they are needed.

If you live and work in Country A, you should pay your taxes there. Fine, no argument.

If you live in Country A and earn your money in Country B, it gets a bit more complicated. There are reasonable arguments to be made by both countries, so you could end up being double taxed, or you could end up paying none. That's more of a glitch in the system than a sensible taxation policy, but it's hardly an outrage.

What I am not seeing in either case is how Country C, where you don't live, don't work and don't earn money, gets to take a cut as well. Surely not on the basis that you might lived there once, or that you might live there again in the future? By that logic every country I've worked in, or might possibly work in, would be entitled to demand taxes off me, which would clearly be ridiculous.

While I am living and working abroad I am using the services and benefits of my host country, so I pay my taxes here. If/when I move back to the UK, I will become resident, pay my taxes and be entitled to use their services, including claiming any benefits due to me at that time. Until then, my finances here, whether earnings or savings, are nothing to do with the UK government.

I don't see the relevance of your brother's situation. From your description it doesn't sound like he will ever work abroad. There are people in every country that require additional assistance from the state. That doesn't mean I should be obliged to taxes in all of those countries.


Johnslat: I can see why someone from the USA would consider renouncing their citizenship to keep the US government out of their overseas affairs, but what would I gain from it?


Artemisia, for a UK resident to claim double taxation relief they have to be paying tax on the money somewhere. They can't claim it on tax free payments made abroad.
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artemisia



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 875
Location: the world

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teacher in Rome wrote:
Other things the Italian government like to tax you on:
.....
a second house - whether in Italy or abroad (and they will go through records to see if you're a homeowner abroad)
your worldwide income if they know about it - ie if it comes into an Italian bank account / company
your bank accounts abroad (15 euro per bank account per year, plus interest on savings)

Crumbs! (Not my first thought but that probably can't be posted).
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Qaaolchoura



Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 539
Location: 21 miles from the Syrian border

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HLJHLJ wrote:

What I am not seeing in either case is how Country C, where you don't live, don't work and don't earn money, gets to take a cut as well. Surely not on the basis that you might lived there once, or that you might live there again in the future? By that logic every country I've worked in, or might possibly work in, would be entitled to demand taxes off me, which would clearly be ridiculous.

I think essentially you're paying for citizenship, and the consular services provided. When you consider how many people, particularly from the Middle East move to Canada for five years, obtain Canadian citizenship, and then move right back to their home country with the expectation that the Canadian government will extricate them if things go sour, you can to some degree see the sense behind this.

On the other hand, the Canadian government solved the problem by charging for subsequent evacuations, as the US and UK governments already do.

And the US, which previously charged income taxes on any Americans who renounced citizenship or permanent residency for ten years after said renunciation, now charges a tax on the appreciation of assets of said individuals. Which is admittedly considerably less absurd that the previous method, and now similar to what Canada does for those who want to renounce citizenship.

~Q
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Ixchel



Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 156
Location: The 7th level of hell

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HLJHLJ wrote:
Ixchel wrote:

That's because as a US citizen at any time you choose you will be eligible to receive welfare (AFDC if you have children) or disability as well as other services such as county health care etc.


You can make those claims at any time? Even if you live abroad? So a US citizen can claim US health and welfare benefits whilst living elsewhere? That would certainly change things. The UK has similar arrangements with Europe, but not worldwide.

Ixchel wrote:

So perhaps it seems unfair but on the other hand if you ever come home and need something you'll want people to have paid their taxes.
I'm certainly not a fan of taxes but I understand the need.


I'm not arguing that tax is unnecessary, obviously I understand why they are needed.

If you live and work in Country A, you should pay your taxes there. Fine, no argument.

If you live in Country A and earn your money in Country B, it gets a bit more complicated. There are reasonable arguments to be made by both countries, so you could end up being double taxed, or you could end up paying none. That's more of a glitch in the system than a sensible taxation policy, but it's hardly an outrage.

What I am not seeing in either case is how Country C, where you don't live, don't work and don't earn money, gets to take a cut as well. Surely not on the basis that you might lived there once, or that you might live there again in the future? By that logic every country I've worked in, or might possibly work in, would be entitled to demand taxes off me, which would clearly be ridiculous.

While I am living and working abroad I am using the services and benefits of my host country, so I pay my taxes here. If/when I move back to the UK, I will become resident, pay my taxes and be entitled to use their services, including claiming any benefits due to me at that time. Until then, my finances here, whether earnings or savings, are nothing to do with the UK government.

I don't see the relevance of your brother's situation. From your description it doesn't sound like he will ever work abroad. There are people in every country that require additional assistance from the state. That doesn't mean I should be obliged to taxes in all of those countries.


Johnslat: I can see why someone from the USA would consider renouncing their citizenship to keep the US government out of their overseas affairs, but what would I gain from it?


Artemisia, for a UK resident to claim double taxation relief they have to be paying tax on the money somewhere. They can't claim it on tax free payments made abroad.

It's 81F/27C here today and everything is in bloom and my allergies are going crazy making me sleepy. I'm not processing most of what you wrote. You cannot get any US medical care overseas actually.
If you don't like paying US taxes and never ever plan to return and get any kind of services or use any kind of services including state schools, community clinics and food banks, roads, parks, national parks, medical, welfare, food stamps, public buildings, street lights, maintenance of such things as clean water and so on and so on and so on
then renounce your US citizenship.
I'm not being rude or sarcastic. If you never plan to come back to the US and know you will never ever need anything taxes support in the US then simply stop being American and stop paying taxes.
No one is forcing you to support a country who you say gives you nothing in return.
When I lived in the most corrupt government in South America just the mention of the US embassy put fear into them. I remember my husband (a local) got stopped for no reason and they told him his car was stolen (it may have been, but he bought it fairly from the previous owner and the police said they were going to confiscate it. When I said I was American and they could follow me to the embassy to discuss it they suddenly lost interest. I have gone to the embassy in other countries for problems which they resolved.)
If you work overseas for 30 years then come home for 30 more you have not paid near what you will get in Medicare and Social Security alone much less other things you will use that I already mentioned like public libraries, emergency services in case of disaster (we have earthquakes, fires and mudslides yearly here) animal control etc etc etc
If I felt as strongly as you do that would be my solution.
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HLJHLJ



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 1218
Location: Ecuador

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ixchel, I said what I had to say 12 months ago when this thread was actually written. I replied to you as a courtesy because, for whatever reason, you chose to single out a post of mine, not because I have any great desire to continue the discussion. If you really must extend its resurrection further, then I would very much appreciate it if you took the time to actually read it first.
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Ixchel



Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 156
Location: The 7th level of hell

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read it and you didn't like my response so ignore me then. No one's forcing you to respond to me.
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artemisia



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 875
Location: the world

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HLJHLJ wrote:
If/when I move back to the UK, I will become resident, pay my taxes and be entitled to use their services, including claiming any benefits due to me at that time. Until then, my finances here, whether earnings or savings, are nothing to do with the UK government.


Ixcel wrote:
If you don't like paying US taxes...

HLJHLJ is from the UK. As this thread is about declaring earnings and the possibility of having to pay taxes in one's home country while working abroad, I think the US Govt has a very fair and clear cut rule specifically about this point. Americans don't run the risk of having to pay taxes back home until they earn above $95,100 p.a, although they have to declare their earnings. Wish that were true everywhere. (As posted earlier, I don't like the part about having to declare saving accounts with balances above a certain amount).
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