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Newbie needs advice
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santi84



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread does make me think that the development of online conversation with native speakers is a great option for Asian students. As a Chinese-language student in Vancouver, I never had a problem finding a native speaker to practice with. Obviously that is much more difficult for an English-language student in China.

A classroom + online Skype or whatever with other native speakers sounds like a good viable option.
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Spiral seemed to suggest that very few or none of those who return to the west "want to return to any part of Asia".


No. I don't think this and didn't write anything intended to intimate this. For one thing, salaries in Asia at the newbie level tend to be quite a lot higher than those in Europe at that level. Obviously people might be glad to earn more money.

Quote:
From this point on I'll make actual quotes, as the posts I'm referring to are more recent:
Quote:
Spiral wrote:
I have twice taught all-Chinese classes in Canada. With a few lovely exceptions, from an overall view, this didn't work well for the students or for me. Major issues were those touched upon in this thread. I do not want to spend my classtime front and centre and expect students to take more responsiblity for their own learning than the Chinese students wanted to take. I'm fairly serious as regards topics and goals and don't make it 'fun' enough, either. My classes aren't boring, but they're not particularly light, either, coming as I do from a context where students expect to really be able to clearly progress if they are going to spend time and energy in a class.


Not to put words into your mouth, but you expected them to do what exactly? Teach themselves? While you sat back and monitored or picked your toenails or whatever? Or were you dumping so much text or so many tasks onto them that they couldn't make head nor tail or it and didn't know where to begin? Hard to tell, but perhaps I'm just (being?) dense. If students think you are abrogating your responsibilities, you should maybe do something about it rather than just shrug and say "They're Chinese" (and TBH I haven't heard of that many Chinese who don't take [their] education [educating themselves?] seriously). Not that I want to sound like I am always a "front-and-centre" guy, even in Asian contexts.


Spiral in regard to his/her current Eurogig wrote:
We do not teach general English here, and all students are presumed to be upper intermediate in English to start. Those who do struggle with listening and speaking are responsible to find some remedy on their own. I realize this could sound harsh, but this institution (like another one where I've spent some years) is solely focused on producing solid performers in field. The students are presumably aware of this in the application process, and the university simply isn't going to take responsiblity to provide remedial English.

I think it is a shame that your institute cannot provide a means of building up and transferring the necessary aural-oral skills. (Not trying to sound snide here at all, but it would surely add an interesting dimension to their studies and your teaching! I appreciate that you may have had your fill of teaching some of that stuff elsewhere though. Me, I'd still like to connect up all the past and current dots!).
Quote:


No, students don't think I'm abrogating my responsibilities. Again, not all of us are called 'language teachers.' My responsibility is to help them to attain a reasonable level of facility in writing and speaking in their field. Without the essentials of the language skills, they can't keep up with their peers. That is firmly outside the scope of what this institution (and others I've worked at) offer.

Not even going to bother to defend the charge of 'picking my toenails.' Any teacher who knows what active learning involves is aware that it's equally active for a teacher as it is for the learners; a very intense focus and ability to think on one's feet is a constant requirement. Much more demanding than delivering a lecture/presentation in which it's all quite predictable.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, here's what you wrote about ELTers from Asia, Spiral:
Quote:
I have only anecdotal experience, and it's clearly very limited, so of little (if any) value. But since we're on the topic, I'll throw it in.

I remember three teachers (all quite separate from each other, didn't know each other at all, ever) who'd spent considerable time teaching in Japan (over a decade in each case).

The default mode of each one was to stand in the front and centre of the class with papers in hand; they spent much time doing this. In one case, even when the students were meant to be practicing their presentations, the teacher couldn't bring herself relinquish the front position. They wrote extensively on the board, and it never occurred to put the marker in the hands of students.
One of them was fond of playing a game that involved a ball-tossing scheme. It fell flat here, as did the other 'tried-and-true' games she tried.

All these teachers, as I mentioned, were in Japan long-term, but in each case, that period began back in the '90s. Maybe some things have changed since they were successful there. Maybe they were at the end of a less enlightened period.

I can say with certainty that none had any training in ESL/EFL, and none were used to monitoring or observation of any kind. And, yes, at least one of them (I think 2) had been at universities.

As for Korea and China, I know teachers who've served time in both. Those with no training tend to be awful, and those who've gone on and got qualifications are generally OK to great (and none want to return to any part of Asia).

I have to support Sasha's general theme: teaching without any training in a part of the world that doesn't require any isn't ideal for teachers who want to continue in the job longer-term, or to teach elsewhere.

However, I've got a bit of sympathy for teachers who start out in such a situation, particularly those like some on these boards who take steps to gain further qualifications.


Regarding the last two sentences quoted, you seem to be overlooking and rather lumping in those teachers who are trained (and/or experienced enough to already know a thing or two). And one can of course teach (or attempt to) when untrained (albeit possibly for lower or zero pay e.g. when volunteering) even in countries where qualifications of some sort are the norm. Not sure what you mean by further qualifications - Dips and/or MAs aren't the be-all and end-all, or did you just mean ELT-specific but basic qualifications (which admittedly are currently rather basic) beyond a vanilla first degree?

Re. any abrogation, I was talking about your previous gig in Canada, where you say you worked with Chinese learners with differing expectations of a teacher. (Was there a problem with faked admission criteria from them or something?). And my tongue-in-cheek charge of toenail picking does not, as I've said already, at all imply I'm in contrast a die-hard lecturer, far from it. I think this again comes down to the levels of the students we receive and what we can thus expect of them. Personally I don't really see quite the same challenges with advanced learners (you can ask just as much as, and indeed more than, they ask of you), but there you go. Perhaps you and Sasha are sometimes trying to make teaching (or learning if you prefer) out to be more than it is or really needs to be, I guess I would be too if I had an MA to justify.


Last edited by fluffyhamster on Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. Fluffy.

Here's what you seem to want:

'Teachers' who are untrained and unqualified,
and therefore untainted by PPP or other formulaic basic approaches,
with extended libraries of EFL related tomes,
who present lots and lots of carefully considered words to their Asian students
are the best teachers for that region.

Is this how you see it?

Quote:
you and Sasha are sometimes trying to make teaching (or learning if you prefer) out to be more than it is or really needs to be, I guess I would be too if I had an MA to justify.


No need for me to try to justify the MA; without it I would have neither the position nor the paycheque that I've enjoyed over the past six years since I earned it.
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie needs advice Reply with quote

Mohassanach wrote:


After lurking in the shadows for months



And look what you've started since you came out of those shadows Wink
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spiral:

Formulaic basic approaches? As in rigid templates? Who really wants those enforced?! I think they indeed taint and close minds. You may see them as opening minds or providing "much needed" security or fallbacks (throwbacks more like) or whatever, but your choice of words could've been better.

Yes, I'd prefer that teachers invest in extended libraries than not spend anything or pug funds up for the (likely bare-minimum) Dip or MA reading list far off in the never-never. Who with a serious interest in ELT wouldn't invest in such resources sooner rather than later?

Nothing wrong with much more carefully considering one's teacher talk either. What is its function? Is it demonstrating much, or just emanating from the same old tired stock of classroomese phrases? An increase in the quantity and/or the coverage of the items taught/to-be-learnt would also be nice, but the teacher doesn't need to say or read absolutely every last word if suitable audio texts can be found.

Of course MAs result in increased pay, but boy have you earnt and do you continue to earn it eh! All those theories and buzzwords de jour that one has to remember if not actively champion - it must be exhausting! Maybe you should add a load more terms to your acronym thread or similar to show us mere mortals exactly what's what in the upper echelons of ELT Command. And don't forget that you really need to do a PhD eventually just in case your knowledge gets out-of-date like a can of once-pricey but now-inedible quality baked beans n sausages.


Last edited by fluffyhamster on Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie needs advice Reply with quote

Denim-Maniac wrote:
Mohassanach wrote:


After lurking in the shadows for months



And look what you've started since you came out of those shadows Wink


M mentioned that he/she fancied the Middle East. That'll very probably require an approved cert and then some (as a read around on these forums will soon show).

Or he/she could just head to Asia and join the League of Shadows. That won't go down too well later though, if applying to somewhere like the Wayne Foundation for ELT Excellence (which is where people like Spiral and Sasha work). The only hope then is that that Bane guy will come help shake things up a bit.
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see both sides of it ... but Im going to bail out of this thread and curl up in bed with my Face2Face teacher book Laughing

My Chinese studies are kinda on hold at the moment. Im back in China April 9th though so Ill start again then. Banes pronunciation isnt good enough to help though, I know you like the idea of carefully considered TTT but with Banes voice muffler thing its not going to float anywhere. Asia or otherwise Very Happy
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@DM: Ohhhh, you think the darkness of your snuggy wuggy little bed is your ally. You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it! Moulded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man; by then it was nothing to me but blinding[ly obvious LOL - FH]. The shadows betray you...because they belong to me!

Last edited by fluffyhamster on Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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artemisia



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 875
Location: the world

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A shame this all seems to have got so personal as there have been some interesting points raised and discussed all along the way. I don't see identifying specific issues that teachers have encountered within their own teaching contexts - whether about other teachers or students - as superior. That's not the intention I picked up on this thread and I think there's been a misinterpretation on that score. Having worked in both Asian and European contexts, though admittedly not for a long time in either, the Europeans I taught came from a learning environment that expected teachers to know their stuff (inelegantly phrased, I know) and to create learning environments conducive to their specific needs. It's not that my Asian students had no goals or expectations, but they were different ones and they were far less likely to make direct demands.

Fluffyhampster wrote:
I think this again comes down to the levels of the students we receive and what we can thus expect of them.

I�d say it comes down to levels and goals � why are they learning the language or in need of applying and extending what they know within an academic context?

Students who want to gain a degree or diploma taught in a foreign language, as so many do, are in a different boat to those who attend classes to develop, say, conversational skills so they can travel. The first lot are going to be flung, at some point, into a context where they are going to have to adapt to a very different learning/ teaching style (if making the transition from Asia to the West or vice versa). The second lot need to develop speaking skills just as much, but not for a context that will fundamentally challenge their whole academic learning and capacity for initiating self directed study.

With Chinese students in academic writing, I�ve had my work cut out to get them past the point of regurgitating a series of stock phrases in their writing. They�ve been dismayed to find out that this doesn�t constitute good writing and can be reluctant to let go of it, but some have been more open to change than others. This has been far less of an issue with Japanese and Korean students. Their ability to express themselves orally has varied, but having a class of mixed nationalities is a real bonus in that regard. It�s much tougher with a monolingual (and possibly huge) class on their own stamping ground unless the ground is one that already embraces a concept of learning that is pro-active.

Good luck with your studies D-M and have fun with that teacher's book. We know you love it....
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiral78 wrote:
I've never talked about 'superiority' or 'their fault' I am only discussing differences. As I've stated ad nauseum over the years, TEFL in Asia is obviously as respectable as TEFL anyplace else is. The issue(s) being discussed here are the differences. It seems clear that most of us agree there are significant differences in the teaching contexts.
There is nothing negative about discussing that.
Just saying that the way you 2 write comes off differently than how you intend.

Quote:
Quote:
I'd like to ask how Sasha and spiral operate with these cultural differences in their classroom. Just throwing the students to the wolves in a foreign land is not helping them.


These days, I have very few Asian students in the mix. Most of ours are European, with a few North Americans in the mix. Yes, I teach them all. We do not teach general English here, and all students are presumed to be upper intermediate in English to start. Those who do struggle with listening and speaking are responsible to find some remedy on their own. I realize this could sound harsh, but this institution (like another one where I've spent some years) is solely focused on producing solid performers in field. The students are presumably aware of this in the application process, and the university simply isn't going to take responsiblity to provide remedial English.
Then you and the school are at fault for problems.

1. You assumed students were better than they were because...why? A poorly instituted entrance procedure?
2. You have few of these Asian students, which would make it easier to handle, yet you (you personally as a professional teacher, and you the institution, whom you the teacher should be pushing for assistance) refuse to offer them any guidance, remedial courses, counseling, whatever.
3. If they need such remedial English, how were they ever even expected to succeed in the first place? What sort of standards do your schools have for entrance and passing? Since you seem to have some experience with these problems, it seems very strange that you / the school would continue to take such students in and continue to complain about their poor performance when clearly it is not all their fault.

Quote:
not all of us are called 'language teachers.' My responsibility is to help them to attain a reasonable level of facility in writing and speaking in their field. Without the essentials of the language skills, they can't keep up with their peers. That is firmly outside the scope of what this institution (and others I've worked at) offer.
I'm sorry, but if you can't see the simple fact that teaching writing and speaking is the responsibility of a language teacher, I don't understand what you WOULD call yourself.

Quote:
Basically, ditto the teachers. What we are doing is fairly intensive and product-focused, and we haven't time or energy to get into extensive teacher training.
Every job has some training. Do you provide any at all? My question about the students holds for teachers as well: why do you take them if you already know/suspect there will be problems? Both parties are at fault here.
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The admissions guidelines state that proficiency in English is required. As I noted before, teachers whose experience is solely from Asia no longer make it to the top of the pile.

Good heavens. It is always a pity that we cannot discuss the differences without the mudslinging. I do not attack your job performance in your teaching context; I would not presume to tell you what you should be doing. I can only speak in general terms about the kinds of competencies I see in the occasional student from your region. If you want to write about whatever European students you may encounter, that is fair enough.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiral78 wrote:
The admissions guidelines state that proficiency in English is required.
This is sidestepping the issue. How is this measured? Please do me the courtesy of answering a direct question here.
spiral78 wrote:

Ok. Fluffy.

Here's what you seem to want:

'Teachers' who are untrained and unqualified,
and therefore untainted by PPP or other formulaic basic approaches,
with extended libraries of EFL related tomes,
who present lots and lots of carefully considered words to their Asian students
Yup, this only confirms that you don't know how teaching works here.

Quote:
Good heavens. It is always a pity that we cannot discuss the differences without the mudslinging.
Can't you see constructive criticism?

Quote:
I do not attack your job performance in your teaching context
the quote above from you to Fluffy would say otherwise.
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artemisia



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 875
Location: the world

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The admissions guidelines state that proficiency in English is required.

The point is that it's not an individual teacher's concern if this is the policy set down by the institution. I see nothing problematic about students getting themselves up to speed elsewhere if need be. In fact, I think there�s a lot to be said for institutions that have very clear, specific rules and that students know the score, as opposed to taking on students below the expected ability. It sets a standard and I�m sure students of a certain level would be keen to study in such in a place � I know I would.

Fluffy�s comments could be said to be have been directed against any number of contributors to these forums who have worked towards higher qualifications. IMO, there's little that could be termed constructive going on here now.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Artemisia: All this talk of levels and needs has got me thinking. A perceptive cert applicant will notice that there are qualifications beyond the cert, and that these seem to be needed if one intends to become a DOS or university-level teacher. But no cert is ever sold as a linguistically-insufficient qualification too lightweight or dumbed-down to teach all 4 skills (ha ha) yadda yadda, right? My question then is, what is the PRINCIPLED justification for divvying up the linguistic(s) workload such that cert holders are supposedly incapable of (if it were necessary, learning for themselves about and then) teaching say the "arcaner" aspects of LT that is ESP? What principle other than increasing the amount of money involved in having separate qualifications, that is. Or the slightly insulting answer more or less of "You're too thick to understand more than the little I'm supposedly prepared to tell you at this particular moment in bottom-feeder time."

There used to be an age when first degree holders were men and hamsters were curious little nibblers, and one didn't have to go screaming back to school (aka the cage) to learn every little thing. I even posted a pop-quiz once about which old-school LT luminaries had even got a first degree.


Quote:
Fluffy�s comments could be said to be have been directed against any number of contributors to these forums who have worked towards higher qualifications. IMO, there's little that could be termed constructive going on here now.

I tell it like I see it. I think most ELT courses and qualifications are bunk. The only ones that really interest me are the empirical and descriptive. All the rest are ultimately hand-waving and window-dressing. There is no GUT of ELT. But while we're on the subject of respect, a little more could be extended to those who, for whatever reasons, don't quite have the qualifications but do possess a reasonable-enough brain. I view everyone who bothers to post even half-considered stuff on here as peers (until of course they try to insist or remind otherwise - that I and quite a few others are not their peers but should apparently view ourselves as their subordinates or necessarily their lessers or something. Then I nibble back). And FYI/FWIW I feel like I have worked quite hard towards a variety of things, just not a further formal qualification in ELT (yet - nah, what am I saying, probably never! I don't think I would nowadays recoup the cost, or be able to stomach the IMHO less-interesting boring stinky compulsory wade-through parts).


Last edited by fluffyhamster on Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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