Job Discussion Forums

[H5N1]

[vabeckele]

[LettersAthruZ]

It's not horrible, but, truthfully? Yeah, over the past 12 - 18 months, there has been a major flood of new ESL teachers onto these shores (Tay ESL teachers in Tier Two and Tier Three sized cities out in the provinces here in The North......places where [except for myself] they'd NEVER been seen in the past).

It HAS INDEED made the demand for Tay teachers a lot softer and HAS INDEED placed downward pressure on wages and salaries (there are places in Ha Noi and Hai Phong that are paying $1100USD - $1300USD a month [lodging with about 10 roommates is included in the compensation package] for 100 classroom hours per month).

That's eleven to thirteen dollars an hour, folks

That's a fact and that's just the way it is!!

I am NOT TRYING TO DISSUADE people from considering teaching here, nor do I believe that Kurtz, Vabeckele or anybody else here is, but as I have said several times over: DO AN "INVESTIGATORY" TRIP HERE FIRST BEFORE running home and packing up all your stuff and coming here! Otherwise, if you just land here totally blind, you could be in for a very rude awakening......



While, yes, it COULD possibly be seen that any attempts to steer new English teachers away from Viet Nam may be in the interest of established instructors (doesn't really affect me at all - I freelance ONLY), there are also "Coordinator" or "Director's Assistant" types who are Westerners who will make about a dollar or two more per hour than the regular teachers earn. Part of their job description (in addition to buddying-up to the Tay teaching staff) is to go on the Internets and blather that jobs are easy pickins round these parts, as this creates a supply glut and, thusly, has the effect of depressing ESL Instructor wages and salaries.

A few of these aforementioned Coordinator / Assistant to the Director types have been removed form some of the ESL teachers boards in the past year or so.

[Riding One]

[sokunen]

Can I hijack on this thread real quick and ask those in here what the going rate is for a foreigner to get a work permit? I'm in a situation here in VN (serious lapse of communication from my employer that is leaving me underprepared for my work situation) and now it looks like I either will have to leave in a few weeks when my 3-month expires or try to figure out a work permit. They're telling me it could cost upwards of $610 -- and that's discounted, apparently?? But I've checked some other sites and I'm seeing 400,000 VND for a work permit app. I can't even find straightforward stuff from various VN embassy/government websites about what it should cost -- I'm only finding out what I need to apply, and then see this 400k charge attached to it.

[sigmoid]

[skarper]

I think there has been a decline in wages everywhere. Vietnam is perhaps worse than some places but I suspect because the wages had further to fall in real terms.

Teaching jobs in Japan have been routinely offering 250 000 yen a month for a long time now. I think that probably has the buying power of about 1000 USD here - maximum.

On 1000 USD here you will scrape by as long as you have cheap accomodation and no expensive habits. Not really living though.

250000 yen a month in Tokyo would be a struggle. You'd need extra private lessons or you'd be losing money every month.

Korea was pretty good 5 years ago but a fall in the won was never mitigated by higher wages. They are only slightly higher than the 2.2M won + benefits that had for a while been the norm.

UK EFL is effectively a minimum wage job - �10 an hour for a job with prep time and supervision/admin often required for free.

Europe is subsistence level pretty much everywhere.

There is much talk of 'recovery' but it is just talk. The global economy is in ruins and will never regain levels that were normal 10 years ago.

Vietnam is suffering more than some places and far more than any published indicators will tell us. But where is there a better deal?

Some people can 'go home' and get a real job but quite a lot of us just can't (or would rather muddle along doing something we enjoy).

It is certainly very uncertain and I'm sure most married people are delaying having children. It can be hard to get this through to Vietnamese wives who are steeped in a culture of 'family' and whose parents and grandparents managed to raise children in quite incredible hardship. But it is different for westerners.

An old joke is that the difference between a large pizza and an EFL teacher is the pizza can feed a family of 4.

Truer and truer every day.

[ExpatLuke]

Where is it better? The Middle East of course. Go there and earn your 50-80 thousand dollars per year.

And to the person who made the "well thought out" claim that people who are teaching here now won't be here in 5 years, some of us are in great positions and have no plans to leave, and I'd say even more of us are here for reasons other than money.

[skarper]

The Middle East? Are you out of your mind!

Well - maybe some folks are willing (and qualified enough) to try the middle east - but there is a reason (or rather a stack of reasons actually) they pay like that....

I looked into the UAE about 15 years ago - pre 9/11. Money was good but not a nice place to live with high cost of living and some of the worst students you will ever meet. Nice enough boys - that is what you teach - boys from the age of 16-30 years old. No girls of course unless you are a woman. Not many women want to spend time in the middle east. Just lousy students with zero work ethic and a culture of cheating that just leaves you speechless...

[ExpatLuke]

I've taught Saudi students (boys and girls) in the US. Ages 18 - 50 and they weren't too bad. Several of them we very entitled, rich kids but in general I found them to be very outgoing and fun to teach. The girls are angels. You're right about the culture of cheating and plagiarizing though... but it's not any different than Vietnam.

But yeah, if you want to teach there, you will have to give up a lot of things you're used to here. Namely drinking, women, religion, freedom... But there might be a few locations where it's almost livable... perhaps the coastal cities in Oman, UAE, Kuwait, or Saudi Arabia.

[skarper]

'Almost livable.' Well - I am old now - I've settled in SOOO many ways. But I do live a life which is easily livable.

I taught UAE students in the UK. Nice enough lads but a daily battle to get them to do even a little work. They were quite inventive in the strategies they employed to avoid completing any of the tasks set to them...

Some were OK. About 2 in each class actually made an effort, but these were then culturally obliged to cover for the others!

Anyway - this is well off topic for a Vietnam board. EFL in the middle east is so different to EFL anywhere else that is barely worth comparing the two IMO.

[kurtz]

I try and be honest here. Let's talk about what I call general "facts" about living and working in Vietnam from a 30+ male's perspective.

Work- MOST, not all, but most jobs here are a bit of a joke. Split-shifts, being asked for games by grown adults, poor quality courses, poor management, classes that get cancelled for the most ridiculous of reasons, money making mills that don't give a damn about education, poor communication between staff and teachers is what I'd call the norm here.

Also, you can fool yourself into thinking you're a "teacher" when in fact you're a half-arsed amateur masquerading as some kind of educator of English. I hazard a guess that most peeps teaching in Vietnam have a rudimentary knowledge at best of the mechanics of English grammar and tasks such as the ability to break down complex sentences and give detailed feedback on writing would be far beyond the reach of the humble EFL educator. How many teachers would be seen for the phoney that they are by an advanced group with detailed knowledge of grammar? How many teaching methodologies do people know here? These are the same people that with a Bachelor of (enter obscure course name *here*) and a CELTA, can start putting their hands up for AC jobs with only 1-2 years' of actual teaching experience and start handing out their business cards and sit in meetings like they're some kind of actual manager? Gotta love Vietnam for providing an opportunity for such people. These same people would hardly get a foot in the door in the EFL market in their home country. Apologies to those with an MA TESOL or Degree in TESOL or upstanding folks who've managed to get their skills up to par.

Life - Well, for the geezers here, you can easily date girls 10-20 years your junior and enjoy a life that akin to a B-grade celebrity, just because you're a foreigner who can speak English. Folks can enjoy a life of sunshine and drink cheap beer to their little heart's content. How many folks are learning the language, reading the history, learning how to cook Vietnamese food, collecting art or studying the rich tapestry that is Vietnamese culture? OK, hands up, who's here just for the easy life?

If you don't think long-term too much, Vietnam is quite high on the list of EFL destinations I can think of. Job satisfaction, stability, personal development and rewarding career opportunities are slightly different matters though.

Time for a bia hoi. Cheers!

[ajc19810]

Well put Kurtz. This is actually one of the more accurate posts.

Just a note about being a 'qualified teacher'. It's always been one of my pet peeves, how some people do masquerade as 'teachers' or attempt to pass themselves off as some kind of professor of the world.

I have always known my place as a lowly English teacher and I always likened it to language classes i have taken in Australia. I have hired tutors and spent time in TAFE classes trying to learn different languages. It has never once crossed my mind to ask them if they had a teaching degree. I only cared that they knew how to speak my target language.

[ExpatLuke]

While I do have my Degree in TESOL, I wouldn't categorize every teacher here who doesn't have one in the same boat. I've had some colleagues here who just have the Degree + Celta, and I've found them to be great teachers. I learned a lot from them.

[Prof.Gringo]