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scot47

Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343
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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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We could consult the Duke of Sutherland for his ancestral expertise in emptying his territories of troublesome crofters.
Last edited by scot47 on Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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revenger2013
Joined: 01 Mar 2013 Posts: 111
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Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:11 am Post subject: |
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sheikh radlinrol wrote: |
I�m lost again. You�re saying that if the islanders sever ties with London and become independent, then the Argentinians will leave them in peace.
I doubt it very much. At least now they enjoy the protectection of a nation which is stronger than Argentina, even if we aren�t exactly a superpower! |
Yes basically! The Argentinians daren't invade an independent sovereign nation with a seat on the UN - even the Americans had to go to the UN before they invaded Iraq. Also, an independent Falklands can still have a British military base there like Singapore did in the 1960s and 70s to defend them from an attack from Indonesia. There is no reason why the Falklands cannot become a part of the South American community (because that is what they are) and be safeguarded by the UK and Chile. Whilst those islands are British, there is always going to be that threat from Argentina. |
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revenger2013
Joined: 01 Mar 2013 Posts: 111
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Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:13 am Post subject: |
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sheikh radlinrol wrote: |
Sashadroogie wrote: |
It can be looked at in that way - the optimistic way. But, I fear that this new-found concern for islanders' rights is really only about trying to maintain the ability 'to punch above our weight'.
Were it in the UK's strategic interests today to forcibly deport all the islanders, then I think that would still be a real possibility, as it has always been.
Yes, I know - that is cynical. |
Disagree. �Punching above our weight� is very costly. Call me naive or old-fashioned but I believe our government has an obligation to defend our people, whether they live in the Falklands, the Orkneys or Wigan.
You believe our government would deport the islanders if it were in its strategic interests. Conjecture. In any case, I can�t imagine a scenario where that might happen. Can you? |
Like the people of Hong Kong who we left to a dictatorial government in 1997 or the people of Montserrat who we were going to leave amongst a lava strewn island. It is just some 'British subjects' get taken care more than others. Nobody with a brain is took in by this nonsense though. Falklanders get more 'golden elephants' than anyone else . http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/25/victims-montserrat-volcano-tragedy-investigation |
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sheikh radlinrol
Joined: 30 Jan 2007 Posts: 1222 Location: Spain
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Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting comments, Revenger. However, I doubt that an independent
Falkland Islands with a permanent military presence would appease the Argies. Probably just give Cristina more material with which to distract the attention of her long-suffering fellow citizens.
As for becoming part of the South American community, this is what they want. It�s Argentina which is obstructive e.g. preventing cruise ships which have visited the Falklands from docking in Argentinian ports and trying to dissuade South Americans fro mgoing to help supervise last week�s referendum.
It�s reassuring that you (and others, I hope) believe that in the unlikely event of war, we would have support from Chile.
Hong Kong is a different case. The lease was up on the New Territories and hanging on to Kowloon and Hong Kong without them wasn�t viable. Well, I suppose we could have told the Chinese to come and fight for them.  |
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revenger2013
Joined: 01 Mar 2013 Posts: 111
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Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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sheikh radlinrol wrote: |
Interesting comments, Revenger. However, I doubt that an independent
Falkland Islands with a permanent military presence would appease the Argies. Probably just give Cristina more material with which to distract the attention of her long-suffering fellow citizens. |
There is no basis in fact and I will give you a more recent example, the Guatemalans claimed British Honduras as their territory for years and they were sabre rattling with the full backing of Latin America, but as soon as British Honduras got its independence in 1980 and became Belize, the whole of Latin America - led by Fidel Castro, withdrew their support from Guatemala and recognised Belize as an independent nation and the Guatemalans have never tried to enforce their claim.
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As for becoming part of the South American community, this is what they want. |
They don't want that at all, they want to remain 'British' and you can't be British AND South American.
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It�s Argentina which is obstructive e.g. preventing cruise ships which have visited the Falklands from docking in Argentinian ports and trying to dissuade South Americans fro mgoing to help supervise last week�s referendum. |
The reason the Argentinians have got the backing of South America is that the whole of South America dislike the notion of having European colonies on their doorstep. They don't support Argentina's claim more than they want rid of Europeans controlling land around their continent. Like with the example of an independent Belize, as soon as the nation became an independent state. The whole of Latin America embraced the new country and Guatemala's claim ceased to exist.
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It�s reassuring that you (and others, I hope) believe that in the unlikely event of war, we would have support from Chile. |
Chile would, I imagine be the biggest trading partner of an independent Falkland Islands, I don't think they would be too happy with the Argentines muscling into their action.
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Hong Kong is a different case. The lease was up on the New Territories and hanging on to Kowloon and Hong Kong without them wasn�t viable. Well, I suppose we could have told the Chinese to come and fight for them.  |
I wasn't talking about the lease - I was talking about how we stripped 3 million people of British nationality overnight to pander to the right wing readership of the sun and the daily mail in 1997. And this is what it boils down to - does anybody think that if the Falkland Islanders were black and Chinese that anyone would support fighting another war to defend 3000 people? Just look how we treated our citizens in Diego Garcia, Montserrat and Hong Kong - we crapped all over them every single time they needed our help and we got away with it because they weren't white people - the lone exception was for the 100000 richest Hong Kong citizens who were able to buy British citizenship - everything for a price I suppose. 
Last edited by revenger2013 on Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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johnslat

Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 13859 Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Dear sheik,
It does look like British is the nationality of choice:
"Falkland Islanders vote overwhelmingly to keep British rule
Residents of the Falkland Islands voted almost unanimously to stay under British rule in a referendum aimed at winning global sympathy as Argentina intensifies its sovereignty claim.
The official count on Monday showed 99.8 percent of islanders voted in favor of remaining a British Overseas Territory in the two-day poll, which was rejected by Argentina as a meaningless publicity stunt. There only three "no" votes out of about 1,500 cast.
"Surely this must be the strongest message we can get out to the world," said Roger Edwards, one of the Falklands' assembly's eight elected members.
"That we are content, that we wish to retain the status quo ... with the right to determine our own future and not become a colony of Argentina."
Pro-British feeling is running high in the barren and blustery islands that lie off the tip of Patagonia, at the southern end of South America. Turnout was 92 percent among the 1,649 Falklands-born and long-term residents registered to vote."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/12/us-falklands-referendum-idUSBRE92B02T20130312
And, as you can see, the poll was taken only three days ago.
Regards,
John |
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sheikh radlinrol
Joined: 30 Jan 2007 Posts: 1222 Location: Spain
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Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Revenger
What does Honduras (British or otherwise) have to do with the Falklands?
Yes, the Falklands do want to remain British but that doesn�t preclude the possibillity of trading with neighbours and having normal relations with them, does it? Well, some HongKongers were stripped of their nationality. � don�t suppose they�re exactly starving now, do you?
In general, I�d say that Britain, for all its faults isn�t such a bad old colonial ruler. Look at the former French and Spanish colonies. |
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sheikh radlinrol
Joined: 30 Jan 2007 Posts: 1222 Location: Spain
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Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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johnslat wrote: |
Dear sheik,
It does look like British is the nationality of choice:
"Falkland Islanders vote overwhelmingly to keep British rule
Residents of the Falkland Islands voted almost unanimously to stay under British rule in a referendum aimed at winning global sympathy as Argentina intensifies its sovereignty claim.
Regards,
John |
The nationality of choice? It certainly is if the alternative is being an Argentinian and being governed by the harridan in Buenos Aires. BTW, if they get belicose again, we expect assistance from our transatlantic friends. A firm word from Obama will save time (and lives) this time. |
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revenger2013
Joined: 01 Mar 2013 Posts: 111
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Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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sheikh radlinrol wrote: |
Revenger
What does Honduras (British or otherwise) have to do with the Falklands? |
What does Honduras (British or otherwise)? I'll stop there - you know Honduras and British Honduras (now Belize) are two different political entities - well - the Falklands and Belize and their history have loads in common.
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Yes, the Falklands do want to remain British but that doesn�t preclude the possibillity of trading with neighbours and having normal relations with them, does it? |
It does if the leaders of the economy of the islands are 10000 miles away on another continent - course it does.
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Well, some HongKongers were stripped of their nationality. � don�t suppose they�re exactly starving now, do you? |
Most were and that's not the point, the point is that 'Britishness' is extremely arbitary at best though skin colour still has a part to play in if you will be defended or helped or not. The Hong Kongers didn't get a referendum if they could keep their British nationality of not you noticed?
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In general, I�d say that Britain, for all its faults isn�t such a bad old colonial ruler. Look at the former French and Spanish colonies. |
There is no such thing as a good colonial ruler, yeah, those French and Spanish made a right balls up of Nigeria, Bangladesh, The Sudan, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, Malawi etc etc.  |
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revenger2013
Joined: 01 Mar 2013 Posts: 111
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Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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sheikh radlinrol wrote: |
johnslat wrote: |
Dear sheik,
It does look like British is the nationality of choice:
"Falkland Islanders vote overwhelmingly to keep British rule
Residents of the Falkland Islands voted almost unanimously to stay under British rule in a referendum aimed at winning global sympathy as Argentina intensifies its sovereignty claim.
Regards,
John |
The nationality of choice? It certainly is if the alternative is being an Argentinian and being governed by the harridan in Buenos Aires. BTW, if they get belicose again, we expect assistance from our transatlantic friends. A firm word from Obama will save time (and lives) this time. |
Right - they lose British citizenship if the 'harridan' gets power over the islands? Thats a new one to me. |
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Sashadroogie

Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 11061 Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:20 am Post subject: |
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sheikh radlinrol wrote: |
In general, I�d say that Britain, for all its faults isn�t such a bad old colonial ruler. Look at the former French and Spanish colonies. |
This sounds familiar! Have you been reading Niall Ferguson? Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World. Terrible piggie alternative history, grrr hisss booo! |
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sheikh radlinrol
Joined: 30 Jan 2007 Posts: 1222 Location: Spain
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Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Sashadroogie wrote: |
sheikh radlinrol wrote: |
In general, I�d say that Britain, for all its faults isn�t such a bad old colonial ruler. Look at the former French and Spanish colonies. |
This sounds familiar! Have you been reading Niall Ferguson? Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World. Terrible piggie alternative history, grrr hisss booo! |
No, I haven�t actually. However, I will look him up on Wikipedia. Thanks for the tip. Meanwhile, life goes on in the peace-loving Falklands where generations of inoffensive islanders have farmed for generations and minded their own business. Long may it continue! |
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sheikh radlinrol
Joined: 30 Jan 2007 Posts: 1222 Location: Spain
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Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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revenger2013 wrote: |
sheikh radlinrol wrote: |
johnslat wrote: |
Dear sheik,
It does look like British is the nationality of choice:
"Falkland Islanders vote overwhelmingly to keep British rule
Residents of the Falkland Islands voted almost unanimously to stay under British rule in a referendum aimed at winning global sympathy as Argentina intensifies its sovereignty claim.
Regards,
John |
The nationality of choice? It certainly is if the alternative is being an Argentinian and being governed by the harridan in Buenos Aires. BTW, if they get belicose again, we expect assistance from our transatlantic friends. A firm word from Obama will save time (and lives) this time. |
Right - they lose British citizenship if the 'harridan' gets power over the islands? Thats a new one to me. |
Yes, I know that Cristina has promised to let the islanders keep their passports when she moves in but a demagogue must say what a demagogue must say. Sorry! |
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Sashadroogie

Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 11061 Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a clip of him in interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN0WifTjTmM
He has a very readable style, but it is a shame that he has never been properly educated in dialectical materialism. This deficiency shows up glaringly in his popular works. Actually, it is hard to tell the difference between his 'serious' history writing and his 'counterfactual' history. He is probably even beyond re-education camps at this point, so full of error is he. Yet he makes a few interesting points about the nature of empire, and the American Empire in particular.
Enjoy! |
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revenger2013
Joined: 01 Mar 2013 Posts: 111
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Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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sheikh radlinrol wrote: |
revenger2013 wrote: |
sheikh radlinrol wrote: |
johnslat wrote: |
Dear sheik,
It does look like British is the nationality of choice:
"Falkland Islanders vote overwhelmingly to keep British rule
Residents of the Falkland Islands voted almost unanimously to stay under British rule in a referendum aimed at winning global sympathy as Argentina intensifies its sovereignty claim.
Regards,
John |
The nationality of choice? It certainly is if the alternative is being an Argentinian and being governed by the harridan in Buenos Aires. BTW, if they get belicose again, we expect assistance from our transatlantic friends. A firm word from Obama will save time (and lives) this time. |
Right - they lose British citizenship if the 'harridan' gets power over the islands? Thats a new one to me. |
Yes, I know that Cristina has promised to let the islanders keep their passports when she moves in but a demagogue must say what a demagogue must say. Sorry! |
The only people who can take away British citizenship are the British government themselves. She has no authority to strip anyone of another countries citizenship. |
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