Site Search:
 
Get TEFL Certified & Start Your Adventure Today!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Tricky grammar question
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> China (Job-related Posts Only)
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Zhejiang_Man



Joined: 23 Aug 2012
Posts: 123
Location: Zhejiang

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This sentence is clear in its answer ... when having another verb, the rule of grammar is to continue the tense. "were working" and "worked" are HARDLY the same tense. ONLY ONE matches the tense of "met"


When having another verb?

Anyway, I think Roadwalker, �actually the verb should reflect the logic of the situation.� is (the most) correct.

When I walked into the room, everyone laughed.
I walked into the room and everyone laughed.

When I walked into the room, everyone was laughing.
I walked into the room and everyone was laughing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
choudoufu



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hilena_westb wrote:
Two answer? Rolling Eyes

Nobody sees the verb "met" ?

This sentence is clear in its answer ... when having another verb, the rule of grammar is to continue the tense. "were working" and "worked" are HARDLY the same tense. ONLY ONE matches the tense of "met"

uggggggggg


excellent. now i am understanding.

I was meeting her in 2007 when we were working together at the same company.

now the verb tenses are agreeing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr. English



Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 298
Location: Nakuru, Kenya

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Swan's "Practical English Usage", third edition, at section 422.4 (page 396):
"The past progressive, like other progressive forms, is used for temporary actions and situations. When we talk about longer, more permanent situations we use the simple past."

My take on the sentence in the test book is that their working together was a temporary situation and that C, "were working", is therefore the correct choice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both are correct. 'were working' and 'worked' are equally correct and it would be wrong to say one answer is wrong, especially if there is no context. As always context is key.

We dont have the whole test to hand. And when we see questions like this reproduced from a class / book we rarely see the whole text and context.

If this question was one in a series which focused on using simple past and past progressive in some kind of controlled practice exercise, that one would be 'more' correct .... Some times a controlled practice task may ask students to use the same verb form in subsequent clauses, in which case the past simple answer would be 'more' correct, but without that context its just a poorly written question that doesnt have a definitive answer.

The idea that verb forms should always follow is a silly one. Ever seen a 2nd conditional sentence?

And I dont think 'working' is a gerund either. Its the main verb following an auxiliary. Helena - I cant believe you let the mis-naming of a gerund slide. Razz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr. English



Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 298
Location: Nakuru, Kenya

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, Denim-Maniac, that context is all. Unfortunately many of these tests have questions that, as you put it, are "without � context � poorly written � [and don't] have definite answers". Test takers need to guess the context as best they can.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dakelei



Joined: 17 May 2009
Posts: 351
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting discussion. The book said "C" is the correct answer.

In general I utterly despise these absurd Chinese exams. If a group of university-educated, native English speakers can not be 100% sure what an answer is how can a 16 y/o Chinese kid? This is why so many Chinese students hate English and why so few Chinese can actually speak it. I'm convinced these exams are made impossibly difficult on purpose to sell practice books and force students to pay more fees to re-take them. It's a travesty. At the uni where I teach the failure rate for the TEM-4 has hovered around 50% for years despite the students' obsession with studying for it. Drives me nuts. It's hard to muster up any "passion" for English when for most students it's just another subject they need to pass an "exam" in. And, of course, I've met quite a few students who do manage to pass these exams but are totally incapable of holding a conversation in English. The whole system is nuts. (OK, knee-jerk reactive China apologists: Go ahead and tell me why the Exam System is great and how we fat, lazy Americans could learn a thing or 2 from it. I'll wait.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
choudoufu



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dakelei wrote:
I'm convinced these exams are made impossibly difficult on purpose to sell practice books and force students to pay more fees to re-take them.


i love a good conspiracy as much as the next tinfoil-underpants-wearer, but
not this time.

most chinese teachers simply can't speak english. why? they were taught
engrish by non-english-speaking engrish teachers. they've simply cutted &
pasted their exams from some other book written by non-native speakers.

they say on the engrish version of the chengdu computerized driving exam,
one of the questions axes what the penalty for speeding is. the 'correct'
answer is 'you will be executed.'

speaking of books, ever wonder why there are so many chinglish textbooks?
turns out, chinese teachers need something published in order
to get their masters or get promoted. most simplest thing? write
engrish book.

our little school is currently putting their own textbook together. chapters
were farmed out to 18 teachers, collected and coagulated. guess who
gets to edit/revise the entire book.....in less than ten days? Shocked

no problem. canceled all my classes for next week, and revised next
semester's schedule to teach ten hours or less.

and my FAO brings me beer and ice cream whenever i run out. (while
editing, at least) Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johntpartee



Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3258

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If a group of university-educated, native English speakers can not be 100% sure what an answer is how can a 16 y/o Chinese kid?


Total agreement. When students show me some of these questions, I just tell them which one I think is the best SOUNDING answer. I'm usually right, but then again, I've been speaking English for almost 60 years and very often the sound of something is the criteria for correctness.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. English wrote:
I agree, Denim-Maniac, that context is all. Unfortunately many of these tests have questions that, as you put it, are "without � context � poorly written � [and don't] have definite answers". Test takers need to guess the context as best they can.


I wont slate the exam / test questions just yet ... simply as I cant see the context. All I have is the single question posted on a forum.

I have some material that one day a student may bring to you with a question that is something like this:

Complete the following sentence using the correct form of the verb in brackets. I have .............. (to study) English for 5 years.

And the student might show you this one question and say 'teacher teacher, how can I get this correct? It can be two possible answers!'.

And in your collective wisdom you'll all say 'That Denim-Maniac, he must be another Chinese spy, his questions are silly and can have more than one right answer. I hate tests in China' etc etc.

But what the student hasnt told you, or show you, is that the entire lesson was about the use of progressive forms, and that each student was given a verbal instruction prior to the task to complete each answer using the progressive form where possible.

Dont get me wrong, the tests can be poorly written, but we dont know what the test is testing in the original example posted, and without all the details on the questions and the full instructions, who knows if its a poorly written test or not.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chinatimes



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Complete the following sentence using the correct form of the verb in brackets. I have .............. (to study) English for 5 years.


Yea? And?

Quote:
It can be two possible answers!'.


Oh yea? How?

I have studied English for 5 years.

What's the second? (I have to study English for 5 years).
Or (I have been studying English for 5 years)?

I don't think that second is "have to" because that is used like "must".

If it was multiple choice were "been studying" and "studied" both options?

Not only do we have a lack of instructions, but we don't know the context of the problem from the answering side. Were there choices A, B, C, and D? Did any of them include 2 different possible answers?

Not enough to go on.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wangdaning



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chinatimes wrote:
Quote:
Complete the following sentence using the correct form of the verb in brackets. I have .............. (to study) English for 5 years.


Yea? And?

Quote:
It can be two possible answers!'.


Oh yea? How?

I have studied English for 5 years.

What's the second? (I have to study English for 5 years).
Or (I have been studying English for 5 years)?

I don't think that second is "have to" because that is used like "must".

If it was multiple choice were "been studying" and "studied" both options?

Not only do we have a lack of instructions, but we don't know the context of the problem from the answering side. Were there choices A, B, C, and D? Did any of them include 2 different possible answers?

Not enough to go on.


You did read the whole post, right?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chinatimes



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wangdaning wrote:
chinatimes wrote:
Quote:
Complete the following sentence using the correct form of the verb in brackets. I have .............. (to study) English for 5 years.


Yea? And?

Quote:
It can be two possible answers!'.


Oh yea? How?

I have studied English for 5 years.

What's the second? (I have to study English for 5 years).
Or (I have been studying English for 5 years)?

I don't think that second is "have to" because that is used like "must".

If it was multiple choice were "been studying" and "studied" both options?

Not only do we have a lack of instructions, but we don't know the context of the problem from the answering side. Were there choices A, B, C, and D? Did any of them include 2 different possible answers?

Not enough to go on.


You did read the whole post, right?


Reading the OP (original post) is one thing. Reading the thread is another. What exactly are you driving at (pilgrim)?

Can you be ALL INCLUSIVE in one post? Try, yo wee yo!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wangdaning



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You simply echoed the idea Denim presented.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chinatimes



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wangdaning wrote:
You simply echoed the idea Denim presented.


I am sorry, I will go to jail then (in a complex way, since you don't seem to like simplicity).

I agreed with another poster on an ESL board. I promise not to do that again Razz

Was that really what you were driving at (pilgrim)?

So what? I agreed with the conclusion and I echoed it. However, how we arrived at the same conclusion was different. I voiced how I did.

I hope this is acceptable on here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wangdaning



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chinatimes wrote:
wangdaning wrote:
You simply echoed the idea Denim presented.


I am sorry, I will go to jail then (in a complex way, since you don't seem to like simplicity).

I agreed with another poster on an ESL board. I promise not to do that again Razz

Was that really what you were driving at (pilgrim)?

So what? I agreed with the conclusion and I echoed it. However, how we arrived at the same conclusion was different. I voiced how I did.

I hope this is acceptable on here.


Alright, it was just that your responses of "Yea? And?" and "Oh yea? How?" seemed argumentative. Maybe I misread the tone of your post.

It just seemed odd that it would be argumentative but in agreement with Denim's post.

My apologies for claiming you didn't read the post.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> China (Job-related Posts Only) All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Teaching Jobs in China
Teaching Jobs in China