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Language death! How much guilt do you feel?
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coledavis



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understated the influence of Greek. Before its role in the eastern Roman Empire, it had been a leading language because of the influence of the Greek city states (e.g. Athens and Sparta), then the empires of Alexander and his successors in Egypt, Macedonia and western Asia. Even when the east was eclipsed by Rome, Greek was still the international language of culture.
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coledavis



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

teacher4life wrote:
It will take at least another 100 years for the French, Germans, and Japanese to get over the fact that they are all native speakers of languages of yesterday.
There are only 4 truly important languages left now- English, Chinese, Spanish, and Arabic. Even Russian, Hindi, and Portuguese are on the decline.
Other languages will survive, but they will just become hobbies at best. Think of speaking French as you do building model airplanes, playing tennis, or shaping bonsai trees.

This analysis is based upon current trends. French is spoken as the second language of many African states. As Sashadroogie (aka 'This is Moscow Calling') might tell you, Russian influence is not necessarily waning. Can we really be sure that new economic or political developments may not change the status of, say, German?
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teacher4life



Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Posts: 121

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coledavis wrote:

This analysis is based upon current trends. French is spoken as the second language of many African states. As Sashadroogie (aka 'This is Moscow Calling') might tell you, Russian influence is not necessarily waning. Can we really be sure that new economic or political developments may not change the status of, say, German?


As much as I love Africa, their French speakers won't help make French language anywhere nearly as important as English, Chinese, or Spanish.

Even in the wild case where Russia joins the EU and the EU becomes the biggest economic/political/military bloc in the history of the world, Russians and Germans will still speak English to each other.

Hindi has the numbers and that is on a huge uptick still, but 30 years ago China had the numbers and few outside of China were learning Chinese. Nowadays, Chinese language is #1 for most SE Asian countries as far as tourism income is concerned. Same goes for S. Korea and Japan. Chinese language is even springing up in tourist destinations in Europe, America, and Australia.

I'm just being realistic. I know the Japanese language quite thoroughly and learning it was certainly NOT a waste of time, but not acknowledging that it is second rate and falling is just not reality.
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coledavis



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't disagree with your analysis. I am merely saying that we cannot always predict accurately and that sometimes events take us in unexpected directions.
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teacher4life



Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Posts: 121

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coledavis wrote:
I don't disagree with your analysis. I am merely saying that we cannot always predict accurately and that sometimes events take us in unexpected directions.


Of course we can't always predict accurately. As an example, what will translation devices be like 5, 10, 25 years from now?

What other possibilities do you see then? (If you make a wild one and it turns out right, you will of course be able to point back at it here years from now!)

In terms of language study, I'd say the biggest surprise of the past 20 years is just how many Asians have learned English to a reasonable level. That trend doesn't seem be changing at all.

What are your thoughts?


Last edited by teacher4life on Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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coledavis



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I did suggest that Germany is still one possibility, dependent on economics. Otherwise, no, merely consider that the unexpected will be, well, unexpected.
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teacher4life



Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Posts: 121

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coledavis wrote:
Well I did suggest that Germany is still one possibility, dependent on economics. Otherwise, no, merely consider that the unexpected will be, well, unexpected.


Please understand that even if Germany has a bright future, that does not equate to a bright future for the German language, especially when you factor in that Germans as a whole are very good speakers of English.
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Other languages will survive, but they will just become hobbies at best. Think of speaking French as you do building model airplanes, playing tennis, or shaping bonsai trees.


From the point of view of a native speaker of one of the few big languages left, perhaps. But if you're a French child born in France to parents who speak French at home, it's no hobby.

The smaller languages will survive, so long as they are LIVING languages, used by the population of the country.
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teacher4life



Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Posts: 121

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiral78 wrote:
Quote:
Other languages will survive, but they will just become hobbies at best. Think of speaking French as you do building model airplanes, playing tennis, or shaping bonsai trees.


From the point of view of a native speaker of one of the few big languages left, perhaps. But if you're a French child born in France to parents who speak French at home, it's no hobby.

The smaller languages will survive, so long as they are LIVING languages, used by the population of the country.


Oh, lest I not be clear- French will DEFINITELY survive! No doubt about that. But it will survive as a domestic language, in France and a few other obscure areas like Quebec or Algeria, not as an international language at the level of the BIG 4. The number of people outside of France who bother to take the time and money and effort to learn French will continue to plummet in the face of advancing English, Chinese, Spanish, and Arabic (in precisely that order regarding those). A lot of those French speakers in Africa may well eventually say, why the hell are we still speaking French when we all speak Swahili (or another African language) and have to study English to communicate with the wider world?

In fact, thanks to major advances in computer technology, a lot of obscure languages that would otherwise die out have a chance to be recorded for all eternity! The last living speakers of many tiny languages like Quechua will be recorded by anthropologists. Then their descendants will be taught Engrish by some guy like you.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Cole that Russian is not necessarily waning, though there are many comments in language guides claiming that it is a language 'in retreat'. This sentiment seems to be based on the fact that the Baltic States have all but tried to outlaw Russian there, and that it is not really taught in Eastern Europe anymore. But this ignores the fact that there are huge numbers of immigrants coming to Russia itself, from the Near Abroad in the main, who need to learn or improve their Russian, and also that Russian has arguably become the second native language of Israel. Retreat in one area, growth in another.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coledavis wrote:

Latin. For a long time it survived the fall of the Roman Empire in the west, becoming the language of the Church. I don't think anybody decided to deliberately extirpate it, unless we refer to the moves towards the use of the vernacular in church services. French literally became the lingua franca.



I am not sure where this point is taking us. It is true that no great colonial power wiped out Latin deliberately. And one could argue that Latin simply 'evolved' into Spanish, French and Italian etc., and so is still one of the dominant languages, in altered form, over huge swathes of the globe.

But Gaulish, on the other hand? That was indeed flattened, by Latin. Are we doing something similar today? Latter-day Gallic campaigners, extirpating the Vercingetrices of the entire world?
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Mr. English



Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 298
Location: Nakuru, Kenya

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thinking among linguists is that perhaps a dozen or so of the 8,000 or so languages we have now have will still be spoken in 100 or 150 years (assuming we survive climate change), though there is certainly not universal agreement among the linguists on this issue. Mandarin and English would certainly be among them, as would Russian, Spanish, Brazilian Portuguese, Arabic, Swahili, French, Hindi, Turkish, and no doubt more I can't think of at the moment. I give you an example of how it happens. In 2006 I traveled for some time in Africa with a Cameroonian woman. Her paternal grandfather, who was then dead, spoke only a local African dialect his entire life. Her father, who is still alive, spoke only this local dialect until about age 5, then learned French as it was the language of instruction at the schools. He went on to become a French teacher, as did his wife, and they brought up all their children as bilingual speakers of French and the local dialect. The woman I traveled with learned English while she was in college, and spoke it quite well. When she and her sisters spoke on the phone at length they would sometimes begin in the local dialect as they felt it was something they should continue to be able to use, but found that before the conversation ended they had drifted into French, as they could not express themselves fully in the local dialect; they had lost some of it through disuse. The woman told me that if she ever had children she would teach them only French and English as there were no job opportunities to be had using the local dialect. Thus, from great-grandfather speaking only a local dialect the great-grandchild would not speak it at all. Language lost in under 100 years.
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7969



Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

santi84 wrote:
You have to try very hard to find any under-30 in Quebec who cannot speak functional English. My neighbour is one of them and she refuses to learn English, so we banter in French through the fences. She's the real deal! Very Happy

Where do you live in Quebec? You'd be hard pressed to find people who couldn't speak English in Montreal, Eastern Townships, and in the Outaouais, but what about up near Rivi�re-du-Loup and Quebec City? I don't ever recall hearing much English up that way. I haven't been up there recently, so I'm curious how much English is spoken there today.

Sashadroogie wrote:
revenger2013 wrote:
No, I think whatever languages are alive today will stay that way.

Not so sure about this point, though. All those dire predictions about 50% of today's spoken languages disappearing within this century etc etc.

Most of these languages that are in danger of dying out probably have fewer than 100, mostly elderly, speakers left anyway. Not much chance of reviving them, although there have been efforts for a few. Can't think of any off-hand but The Economist occasionally does articles on this topic (see below). I'm not feeling too much guilt over the looming deaths of Bunji Creole in Manitoba or Upper Tanana in the Yukon however. Yeah, would be nice to bring back these nearly extinct languages for future generations but these days Canadian culture is investing in projects of far more significance. Like this one!

This article tries to make the case that the spread of English (partially via people like ourselves) and other metropolitan languages is killing off endangered languages:

English Kills

This one is also interesting:

When Nobody Understands
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santi84



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

7969 wrote:
santi84 wrote:
You have to try very hard to find any under-30 in Quebec who cannot speak functional English. My neighbour is one of them and she refuses to learn English, so we banter in French through the fences. She's the real deal! Very Happy

Where do you live in Quebec? You'd be hard pressed to find people who couldn't speak English in Montreal, Eastern Townships, and in the Outaouais, but what about up near Rivi�re-du-Loup and Quebec City? I don't ever recall hearing much English up that way. I haven't been up there recently, so I'm curious how much English is spoken there today.


Hi 7969, I'm in Monteregie, so more rural but within Montreal commuting distance. Functional English is certainly spoken by most youth (under 30), and the teenagers are getting quite impressive (I assume due to the Internet and their desire to communicate, along with video games). The older generation tends to be less bilingual (bilingualism is a sign of affluence amongst the 50+ crowd). I am almost 30 and all the mothers I know want their children to learn English to get ahead in business.

You'll see a few spraypaintings "Brittish Out!!" (sic) but they are certainly the loud minority.

It's like a flashback to Korea without the hagwons and pressure!
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MotherF



Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1450
Location: 17�48'N 97�46'W

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

teacher4life wrote:

In fact, thanks to major advances in computer technology, a lot of obscure languages that would otherwise die out have a chance to be recorded for all eternity! The last living speakers of many tiny languages like Quechua will be recorded by anthropologists. Then their descendants will be taught Engrish by some guy like you.


With about 8 million speakers, Quechua is hardly a "tiny" language. Krenak, a indigenous language of Brazil, which has under 400 speakers is a tiny language.
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