Job Discussion Forums

teechagimme · Joined: 29 Dec 2010 Posts: 56 Location: S. Korea

Right now there is amnesty, so there aren't any fines but this is all that I really know. Has anyone experienced this? It was a complete accident. I couldn't actually read or understand the date as it was written and I was having some trouble getting a pet export permit as well as a plane ticket on an airline that would allow my 16 year old cat to fly in the cabin. All of that hassle had me at the airport one day late and they wouldn't let me leave. I've been staying with a friend and waiting on my now former employer to move things along. They tell me a different story just about every other day.
I'm in a relatively privileged position and although I will miss my Easter dinner with my family, I'm not hurting too much over this. However, it seems to me that these penalties don't really fit the "crime." I'd be fine if they'd fingerprinted me and told me never to come back or something like that but the idea that one can't leave without going through some long process that involves ones employer seems like a serious human rights issue. What happens to the poor Indonesian maids who are sorta being trafficked in the first place?

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

There should be special rules for those with familiars. I have forwarded this suggestion to the Commission for the Suppression of Vice.

abayababy · Joined: 26 Dec 2012 Posts: 109

This forum educated me on the visa rules before I came here, so I was well aware one could not leave the country without "permission" from one's employer. Early on, I tried to explain this to one of my new colleagues who simply could not believe that she couldn't just go to the airport and leave anytime she wished. I don't really see this as a serious human rights violation, unless one views it from a Western perspective. It's simply the law of the land. It's not Kansas.

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

abayababy · Joined: 26 Dec 2012 Posts: 109

Then don't come to Saudi in the first place. Their laws are no secret. BTW, I don't know a soul who has wished to leave the country, for good or for holiday, who has been denied. The OP didn't follow the letter of the law and is now stuck in a bureaucratic nightmare of which she is partly to blame. Not saying the law makes sense or is right. It just is what it is.

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

I lived and worked in Bulgaria from 1991 to 1996, As a resdient foreigner I had to get an exit visa. They had a system which was surprisingly similar to the Saudi Iqama. I had a Foreigner's ID and had to surrender that to get my UK passport before I could travel outside BG.

johnslat · Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:32 pm Post subject:

Dear abayababy,

I don't think it's strictly a "Western perspective"

"Cuba's move to scrap exit visas for ordinary people leaves only a handful of countries keeping this communist-era travel restriction on their citizens, including North Korea and Uzbekistan. "

http://www.rferl.org/content/uzbekistan-exit-visas/24834087.html

"I don't really see this as a serious human rights violation . . . " I wonder if human right violation can be classified in ascending categories of "seriousness." I suppose they can, but a violation IS a violation.

And as for its being a "human rights violation, please see below:

"During the fascist rule in Italy, an exit visa was required from 1922 to 1943. Nazi Germany required exit visas from 1933 until its collapse in 1945.[26] The Soviet Union and its Eastern European allies required exit visas both for emigrants and for those who wanted to leave the USSR for some time.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 13, part 2, proclaimed in 1948 that "Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country." Yet, some countries still have a requirement that an individual obtain an exit visa (i.e., permit) to leave the country. This happens mostly in countries where there is political, economic or social turmoil that results in a rise in emigration. Sometimes this requirement also applies to foreign nationals.

Saudi Arabia and Qatar have an exit visa requirement, particularly for foreign workers. Hence at the end of a foreign worker's employment period, the worker must secure clearance from his/her employer stating that the worker has satisfactorily fulfilled the terms of his/her employment contract or that the worker's services are no longer needed. The exit visa can also be withheld if there are pending court charges that need to be settled or penalties that have to be meted out.

The communist government in Nepal requires citizens leaving the country to work abroad to present an exit visa issued by the labor ministry. This document is called a labor permit and needs to be presented to immigration to leave the country

Uzbekistan is the last remaining former USSR country that still requires an exit visa, which is valid for a two-year period. There has been explicit UN criticism of this practice, which can be a means of controlling political dissidents ("exit visa can be easily used to stop human rights defenders from leaving the country").

The government of Cuba announced in October 2012 its plans to remove exit visa requirements to be effective January 14, 2013, albeit with some exceptions."

"I don't know a soul who has wished to leave the country, for good or for holiday, who has been denied."

I have.

Regards,
John

massiveg · Joined: 14 Mar 2013 Posts: 36

although as you all probably know many unskilled workers cannot leave the country till their employers get replacements and this can and does go on for ages. compound I used to live on, the sri Lankan cleaners and maintenance often worked for six months or more longer than they had to to get their holidays so one holiday every two years often ended up being every tow and a half and in one case three years

abayababy · Joined: 26 Dec 2012 Posts: 109

Okay, I cry uncle! I used a poor choice of words and I retract them. Before coming here I was morally outraged that the US called Saudi an ally and did nothing to discourage their human rights violations. Now that I'm actually here, I have a different perspective because personally, I have not felt violated or at least I cope with it and don't let it affect my disposition or attitude.

I recently requested and received a three day leave and exit-reentry visa to return to the states for a pressing personal matter. A bit of paperwork and done. I knew beforehand this bit of bureaucracy would be required so I see no reason to complain about it. I made the choice to live in a repressive society and realize and accept that I am considered as expendable as the Phillipina cleaners where I work. However, I am treated a bit better, no doubt due to my nationality.

abayababy · Joined: 26 Dec 2012 Posts: 109

massiveg · Joined: 14 Mar 2013 Posts: 36

abayababy · Joined: 26 Dec 2012 Posts: 109

I speculate (and I am sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong), that the violations that happen to ex-pat English teachers are mostly the fault of their contractors and not necessarily the Saudi government or the institution that employs them. Where I work as a direct hire, no one that I am aware of has been denied either a single or multiple exit/re-entry visa.

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

Choose your masters carefully.

johnslat · Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:43 pm Post subject:

Dear abayababy,

Nice out-of-context quoting:

"I suppose they can, but a violation IS a violation."

The teensy-weensy violations of human rights by denying exit visas that I witnessed during my nineteen years in the Kingdom were not connected to either recruiters or contractors, mainly because back then (I left in 2003) those middle-men were rarely, if ever, used.

Let me supply an example: three teachers (all "Westerners" by the way) that I know of were denied exit visas when a parent died. They were unable to attend the funerals since either the institution and/or the government (when the institution was asked, they said it was the government; if you asked the government, I imagine they'd say it was the institution) would not grant them exit visas.

No one is saying that a tolerable, even a contented, existence isn't possible in Saudi. Since i spent 19 years there, I was clearly either content or severely masochistic. However, I don't feel it's fair or relevant to extend my personal experience of Saudi to everyone else. especially since I personally know (and have heard of, second-hand) too many teachers who have been treated badly/unfairly there.

The need for an exit visa puts anyone at the mercy of the employer - if you have a "good" one, then it's highly unlikely you'll have any problems. But if you don't, you can, to use the technical term, get screwed.

Regards,
John

meInst · Joined: 27 Sep 2012 Posts: 10

another +1 post Very Happy

This just cannot be repeated enough times: your employer means EVERYTHING here in the KSA.

With a proper employer, you will probably have a pleasant and comfortable stay. With a shady employer, your life here can be a living hell.