Job Discussion Forums

[deadlift]

[kurtz]

[1st Sgt Welsh]

[kurtz]

Hi Sarge,

Yes, you're right; I have done a stint in Korea plus a very short stint in another country as well.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly, as you seem to have gone off on a tangent. I am not commenting on employment conditions in Vietnam in terms of if they are good or bad and in comparison to other countries. I think that's been done to death already.

I meant that when people talk about their jobs and how much they enjoy living in Vietnam, unless someone provides basic information such as their education, quals and experience; it doesn't really help people from abroad who might take it as gospel. I seem to have been mocked for saying this by our Deadhead friend. I don't believe you can trust the join date or number of posts given to give an idea of how qualified a teacher is, especially if you're new to these forums.

To state again. An anonymous poster might say something vague like "I love it here" or "I'm earning good money" or "there are tons of jobs" but unless you provide some basic information, you're not helping anyone. Someone with no degree or teaching qualifications might read the above statements and be in for a nasty shock, as the person saying the above statements might have a MA TESOL and years of experience. On the other hand, a highly qualified teacher might have very high expectations and be disappointed about the state of affairs with things in Vietnam and write negative things about Vietnam on Dave's and put off newbies who might just want a food in the door and generally have very low expectations.

Yes, we're all adults, we can to a degree read between the lines but as I said before, there are all sorts of people posting on here and without giving aforementioned basic info on their current state of affairs, information could easily be misread by those abroad.

Hope that clears it up.

[1st Sgt Welsh]

Hi kutz,

Thanks for the reply. I understood you, but I don't agree. I'm closer to deadlift's position on this than yours.

Like I said, people [the more, the better] should be free to just record their honest experiences, whatever they may be. Besides, to use your own example, if I saw a poster who, without any prompting and completely out-of-the-blue, kept stating on Daves': "I love it here, but, then again, I've got a DELTA, 5 years experience and I perform very strongly in interviews," my initial gut reaction would be that this guy is a pretentious douche bag! I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in that response, however well intentioned their post may have been.

Moreover, why is it that the relatively few regular posters here who, based on their postings, seem fairly content with their lot, have to be the ones who are expected to keep justifying themselves? It happens to me on Daves' all the time! A recent example is the "Skinny on Vietnam" thread. Even you, judging by your above post, didn't seem to expect the posters who state that 'I hate Vietnam', that 'the pay is terrible' having to explain why they are in a rut. If you did expect it, you never mentioned it. Why is that? If someone is complaining that they have been here for years and can't seem to get a decent job, then instead of everyone blaming Vietnam, maybe the posters themselves should have a responsibility to include disclaimers about all the 'sickies' they've taken, the workshops they've skipped, the times they have turned up to work late and hung over etc., etc. Why not? Same principle.

If certain people on this forum want to accept that working in Vietnam as a TEFLer sucks as some self-evident truth, that's up to them. I don't accept it and nor do the vast majority of people I know here. Furthermore, like I wrote before, the relatively few balanced or positive posters are, in my view, not the ones who often give the readership here a very distorted and lopsided view of living in Vietnam. That honor goes to the other side.

As for readers, who wish to use this forum as a research tool, they should do so properly. Relocating half way across the world is a fairly large decision and should be treated as such. If some university graduate reads a few positive, honest posts on an Internet forum and then thinks that they are guaranteed to experience the same thing then more fool them.

The best jobs here are like the best jobs anywhere, in any occupation. You are not going to fall arse backwards into them. Half an hours' search on this forum would reveal that RMIT and the British Council in Vietnam offer the best employment conditions, but they are selective. It would also, I suggest, show that most teachers in Vietnam work in the large language schools and there is plenty of information about them here too. I spent countless hours using this forum before I made the move here and it seems to me common sense that if you are serious about moving to a foreign country then you would research it properly. If you are too lazy to do that, then, at the risk of sounding insensitive, that's on your own head.

[Funkman]

mark_in_saigon, so depressing so much doom and gloom. Dont really want to hear it or discuss it, so I would prefer if you kept it to yourself thanks anyway.

[mark_in_saigon]

To the community of readers here, (no need for OP to waste his time reading this): Some of us do not have the experience or education to be able to understand the reality of life in VN. Some of us may call it doom and gloom, for others, it might be a very exciting and interesting moment in time, to see this in all its terrible glory. We should note that as a system worsens, it creates even more opportunities for those with financial resources. Some of us may wish we keep it to ourselves, certainly a govt does not want to advertise its worst features. A nation will not change what it is to suit our narrow viewpoints, poorly thought out plans and inadequate resources.

When I post here, I understand that for every response there are some 30 or more readers who do not respond. If I do any good at all, it will be for some of those who do have open minds, flexible thinking and want to know the reality of life here. Those of us who are beyond hope, I can only wish you the best.

[RustyShackleford]

For what it's worth Mark, I find your perspective enlightening yet actually encouraging, thank you.

[mark_in_saigon]

Thank YOU, Rusty. Life here is filled with paradoxes. I am always struck by the fact that if this was a well run system, many of us would not be needed, and we would have less opportunities for happiness. The devalued worth of the native citizen also means that many of the interactions we have with them are incredible bargains. I have sometimes found myself fuming at being charged a double price, knowing that was still half the price (or less) that I would pay back home. Once you have this deal figured out (to whatever extent we can ever figure it out), you see that some of these deals would just be unobtainable for us back home. I just popped in and got an oil change and tune up on one of my motos. It happened the moment I got there for a labor cost of about a dollar. In the west, the vehicle would cost me 20 times as much, I would make an appointment or wait longer and the labor component would be 20 times as much (or even more). You will not find me saying how bad life is here, though I feel terribly for the natives, and for them, I cannot say it is great, though in ways, they may be happier than my own rich people, another paradox. Yet I also see them chasing the dream of material riches more and more, and I believe this also leads them to the same unhappiness so many of my own people have. It is fascinating to see the changes here in the culture.

Most of our discussions here are based on the nuts and bolts of working and living here for the teacher, I would like to say average teacher, but the average poster is not the average teacher by any stretch of the imagination. The average teacher probably stays on any one job a couple or three months, and is in the country less than a year. As time goes on, we need to start considering that the nature of our group is becoming more diverse in their origins. As we have all noticed, we are getting more and more folks from places like South Africa, the Philippines, Spain, Germany, you name it, you no longer even have to be a native speaker of English to try your hand at this. This is not doom and gloom, it is just reality. It alters the landscape significantly.

For those of us who have personal reasons for wanting to come here and have done a modicum of research, I think we will be plenty happy, as long as we can survive here without the work. If teaching is an extra source of income to you that you use when you have it yet you are fine without it, then these can be the happiest days of your life.

For those who must have the income to survive, I understand, but I consider that to be an unenviable position. To have our lives and careers under the control of the VN managers is not a place I would ever want to be. We can and must work with them, but in my opinion, they need to understand that we are professionals and we only work when they support us with some level of enlightened administration, and when they do not, they can color us gone.

[kurtz]

Hi Sarge,

Well I agree and disagree with you. Your comment about the Delta guy as an example would be fine in my book, he gives a context and describes his situation. Does that make me pretentious? So be it.

In terms of contentment, maybe I should just lower my expectations. In a previous life (pre-EFL), I had a pretty damn good job and have some idea about the word "professionalism". That word doesn't apply to the Vietnam EFL world; it's pretty much full of rank amateurs with a handful of real pros.

Sure, people who seem in a rut here probably have nothing but themselves to blame and need to explain why this is so. However, those who "love it" would be best to describe why also. If you met someone on the street and they said "I love it" wouldn't you ask, why? I certainly would. I don't see why asking for extra info on the internet is a bad thing.

Perhaps you have more faith in people doing proper research than I. I have to say that most people I meet seem to look forward to pay day a little more than they should, now, why is that? Perhaps they were expecting a dream; good money to get out of debt or false promises given to them. Again, they didn't do their research and how can we help that? By providing real on the ground information. I think we should be pushing people away who don't have money to fall back on, a degree, CELTA and experience while encouraging people who do. This might be seen as negative by those abroad but who cares! We're doing them a big favor.

I maintain that there are a only a very few select jobs that provide even a semblance of financial security. Those with credit cards debts, no degree or no half decent EFL qualification should stay he hell out of Vietnam. This is why I maintain my stance on people providing just a little more info when they write.

Anyways, I think I've said enough. Perhaps I come across as a superior ass, but whatever; I don't have your faith in people doing proper research and I'm trying to help people make good decisions.

Have a nice day.

[charlesmarlow]

agree wholeheartedly with this except the part that it is a problem on this forum. If someone has put the years in, worked hard, taken their job seriously, improved themselves through further education, networked and can carry themselves in a professional manner then, damn right, they should have different expectations than some newbie with a "sparkling new CELTA"! Indeed, when I do met people here on "4 grand a month" [and they are not exactly an endangered species] my first reaction is fair play to them and, if they've done it, so can I.

The "4 grand a month" gang may not be the majority of Vietnam's TEFLers, but so what? They are certainly not a majority of posters here either. Besides, it's no different than a lot of places. I could be mistaken [and apologies if I am] but I recall reading once that you taught in South Korea kurtz. I've never been there but I've spoken to hundreds of teachers who have worked in the ROK and, if anything, the differences in employment conditions over there seems even more stark than here.

I've met the overworked hogwon teachers who taught snotty-nosed brats for 40 hours a week, who were working for a horrible bosses, living in a flea-bag of an apartment and getting two weeks annual leave a year. Then, on the other side of the coin, I've meet the university 'professors' who teach 12 hours a week, have nice digs, are treated with respect in the workplace, get three months paid annual vacation and earn about the same money as the hogwon teachers. In many cases [although not all], there was very little difference, in terms of academic qualifications, between the hogwon teacher and the 'professors', but I understand that, over the last few years, that's been changing.

I know which of the above jobs I'd prefer, but, what I guess I'm saying, is that one experience is no less valid or real than the other and people should be able to express it without having to preface it with a disclaimer. If a university graduate, who is researching moving here, reads one perspective on an open Internet forum and assumes that that one experience covers everything and everyone then, I'm sorry, but they shouldn't have graduated in the first place! Furthermore, I don't accept that the contented posters are the ones who give this forum a lopsided depiction and, as has been discussed before, I think the exact opposite is true.

I wish this forum had more active members than it does and, IMHO, the more perspectives that are posted here, the better. As long as a potential poster is going to be honest in writing their experiences, then, as far as I'm concerned, welcome aboard .

Sarge that was a great post! I have been following this forum for about 5 years but most of what i read is negative disinformation about Vietnam. You have motivated me to post here. I hang out in the backpacker area with a group of teachers, teachers from RMIT, ACET,ILA and some teachers who work at the international schools. All of us are happy in Vietnam have good salaries, saving money etc. We also read this forum together at the bar and find it enjoyable but mostly dishonest.

As the sarge as said, there are many opportunities in Vietnam for the professional EFL teacher. Mark in Saigon is full of doom and gloom, also he does not represent 99% of the teachers here. We have to work for a living.


Kurtz-you also have some interesting posts-but I think you live in the Hotel California on Bui Vien.

Thanks again Sarge.

[charlesmarlow]

agree wholeheartedly with this except the part that it is a problem on this forum. If someone has put the years in, worked hard, taken their job seriously, improved themselves through further education, networked and can carry themselves in a professional manner then, damn right, they should have different expectations than some newbie with a "sparkling new CELTA"! Indeed, when I do met people here on "4 grand a month" [and they are not exactly an endangered species] my first reaction is fair play to them and, if they've done it, so can I.

The "4 grand a month" gang may not be the majority of Vietnam's TEFLers, but so what? They are certainly not a majority of posters here either. Besides, it's no different than a lot of places. I could be mistaken [and apologies if I am] but I recall reading once that you taught in South Korea kurtz. I've never been there but I've spoken to hundreds of teachers who have worked in the ROK and, if anything, the differences in employment conditions over there seems even more stark than here.

I've met the overworked hogwon teachers who taught snotty-nosed brats for 40 hours a week, who were working for a horrible bosses, living in a flea-bag of an apartment and getting two weeks annual leave a year. Then, on the other side of the coin, I've meet the university 'professors' who teach 12 hours a week, have nice digs, are treated with respect in the workplace, get three months paid annual vacation and earn about the same money as the hogwon teachers. In many cases [although not all], there was very little difference, in terms of academic qualifications, between the hogwon teacher and the 'professors', but I understand that, over the last few years, that's been changing.

I know which of the above jobs I'd prefer, but, what I guess I'm saying, is that one experience is no less valid or real than the other and people should be able to express it without having to preface it with a disclaimer. If a university graduate, who is researching moving here, reads one perspective on an open Internet forum and assumes that that one experience covers everything and everyone then, I'm sorry, but they shouldn't have graduated in the first place! Furthermore, I don't accept that the contented posters are the ones who give this forum a lopsided depiction and, as has been discussed before, I think the exact opposite is true.

I wish this forum had more active members than it does and, IMHO, the more perspectives that are posted here, the better. As long as a potential poster is going to be honest in writing their experiences, then, as far as I'm concerned, welcome aboard .

Sarge that was a great post! I have been following this forum for about 5 years but most of what i read is negative disinformation about Vietnam. You have motivated me to post here. I hang out in the backpacker area with a group of teachers, teachers from RMIT, ACET,ILA and some teachers who work at the international schools. All of us are happy in Vietnam have good salaries, saving money etc. We also read this forum together at the bar and find it enjoyable but mostly dishonest.

As the sarge as said, there are many opportunities in Vietnam for the professional EFL teacher. Mark in Saigon is full of doom and gloom, also he does not represent 99% of the teachers here. We have to work for a living.


Kurtz-you also have some interesting posts-but I think you live in the Hotel California on Bui Vien.

Thanks again Sarge.

[1st Sgt Welsh]

Thanks again for the reply kutz. I don't want to belabor the point and to put simply, in my view, it largely comes down to individuals taking responsibility for their own decisions. People thinking of moving here can either choose to do the research, or not. If it is not, then, all I can say is good luck to them.

As long as a poster here is honest then they're OK in my book. Besides, if you have been reading this forum for a while you get a sense of who's who and what their circumstances are. God knows there are not that many regular posters on this forum.

For example, I certainly wouldn't expect LettersArthuz to state in every one of his posts that he is a freelancer. He has said it several times and he shouldn't have to keep repeating himself just on the off chance that some lurker, who is doing a half-arsed job of researching the country they are planning on moving to, might be confused by one his posts and his differing circumstances.

Also, if a reader is not sure or wants to ask a specific question about a specific post then, for the love of God, stop lurking, log in and ask . Like I said, the more, the merrier! I've disagreed with a lot of people here, but, I don't doubt for a second that most of them mean well and will go out of their way to help a newbie or a budding TEFLer. Anyway, that's just the way I see it.

By the way, touching of the topic of lurkers logging in, thanks so much for the kind words charlesmarlow! It's always great to see new members here and hope you will be sticking around for a while .

[kurtz]

Call me daft, but the Hotel California reference went over my head.

Hello Lurkers, come join the party.

[TRH]