Job Discussion Forums

[SElliott]

Hello everyone,

I have a question in regards to teaching in Vietnam. Firstly, I think it's necessary for me to point out that I'm looking to teach in Vietnam for only a year. I've always wanted to teach English as a second language and Vietnam is a country which I have been interested in for sometime now. With that out of the way, it's important to note that I'm not looking to make this a career (pay isn't that important, it's the experience that matters). However, I'm not looking to work for peanuts either, is $1300 a month a reasonable number to expect?

With all that being said, what are the odds of me picking up a job with a 4 year honors degree, and a TEFL certificate? My cert is not online, I took it in Montreal over a course of 4 weekends. This class included lesson prep and the philosophy behind teaching English. It's no celta but will having the degree and the certificate enable me to land a decent job?

There seems to be a lot of negativity on this board from those who are currently teaching in Vietnam, many suggest Korea. While Korea does seem to be more forgiving to a new teacher, Vietnam offers such an exotic experience, something which I'm looking to get while teaching English.

[skarper]

In the big cities (HCMC is best but Hanoi is also doable) you will find work.

They will pay you as little as possible and some will try to pay ~$15 USD an hour.

I'd say about $18 will be your average pay and therefore you wil need to work about 20 hours a week to gross 1300. If you have to pay tax (many will not pay your tax but they are more than happy to deduct 25% and call it 'tax') you have to work another 5 hours a week. Any holidays (even national holidays or the 2 week tet break you will not get aid anything). Ditto sick leave. Ditto visa run leave and you will have to foot the bill for all that - see separate threads.

This is quite hard to maintain though in summer you might manage 30+ hours and a slightly higher average wage.

Your tefl cert is a joke. Bring it and wave it by all means but it means nothing at all.

A lot of people come over here just like you - looking for an experience and adventure and just a break from the grind. OK - why not? I'd say about half have a miserable time and struggle to find any silver lining. About a quarter get by OK, break even and can say they enjoyed most of it. The remaining 25% luck out or maybe they brought one of those Ozzie style attitudes and can make the best of anything. Good for them.

There are a lot of threads on here covering your situation which I'm sure you will have perused.

Don't be fooled by ulta positive comments on here or by the spin the big mills like to put on it. You are not eligible to work for them without a Celta Equiv anyway...

To be frank - unless you are out of work and don't have any hope of finding a job, are running out of benefit entitlements etc I would just stay home and leave your Vietnam TEFL adventure for a few years. There are more and more down at heel westerners fetching up here and getting exploited, thereby spoiling the market for qualified long termers, and also doing a fairly lousy job as they try to work out what an adverb mght be...

But if your heart is set on it or you just have few better options (been there myself) then you are perfectly entitled to give it a try.

Bring 3000USD and a return ticket. Expect to leave with less than you brought. You won't be able to send money out of the country anyway.

[charlesmarlow]

[SElliott]

[deadlift]

[SElliott]

It was a 110 hour course, which is better than most online courses many people are taking (and successfully teaching with all over the globe). However, as I already said, it appears CELTA rules in Vietnam. Could someone explain to me what's so special about CELTA, what exactly puts it over the others?

People seem to look at CELTA as the be all end all of teaching certificates, but to be honest, from what I've read it's really no different than other in class certifications you have out there with the exception that there are more hours and feedback from the profs. Seems to be a glorified TEFL cert. Complaining about the CELTA will do little to change the fact that many big schools require it, but still, what's so special about it and more importantly, why do other countries seem to be more lenient on their requirements compared to Vietnam?

I spoke to a friend who was teaching in Korea and he states that while many schools say they 'require' a certain certification, it's still worth applying as they may still hire you. He's currently working at a school ran by the government that 'required' a TEFL cert and he was hired having only a BA. Is the situation different in Vietnam?

[skarper]

The deal with the non-Celta equiv courses is that anybody can set them and there is no oversight from an external body.

Ergo - they could by OK but more likely they have serious shortcomings. Now, plenty of Celta courses are pretty iffy too. Which is why better schools require an pass at grade 'B' or a years experience as well.

I wouldn't try to look for hidden meanings in the advice you get - old timers are not threatened seriously by newbies. Most have their niche carved out.

People with one or two years on the job are the ones who will tend to resent you, since you are probably as good as them and likely to be cheaper/less trouble to the management.

There is at least 2 tiers to EFL in Vietnam. Serious places (few and far between) and scam schools that take the students money and provide a shocking service while ripping off their gullible staff.

I tend to be discouraging in my posts because that is how I see the market now. People have to know that it's not what it was and ignore the hype you might see on certain company websites.

If you just want to experience Vietnam you would be better advised ot work extra hard for 6-12 months then take 3 months off and backpack around the region. You will have a better time and probably only spend what you would lose in a year teaching in Vietnam. I think it's fair to say you will probably lose money every month for the first 6 months and only start to recoup some of it in the last 3 months.

Meanwhile you have to factor in time you have not invested in your real career...

But I repeat - come if you really want to and make the best of it...

Anh Dep - While it's certainly possible to live on the proceeds of 10 hours teaching a week you need to have cheap accomodation and live very simply. I don't think a new arrival would manage on less than 1000USD a month and to get that they'd have to be gettiing 25USD an hour net. 16USD net is more likely.


To the OP - please read carefully through the past threads on here - you will find answers to all your questions there if you look. There is an element of 'newbie fatigue' on here plus it's summer so HOT and most folks are working extra hours due to the schools being off until August...people just don't have the time and energy to answer the same old questions over and over.

If only we had a sticky for 'Stupid Newbie Questions'. Perhaps with a less inflamatory title...

[SElliott]

Well thanks for the help skarper, I guess it's time for me to start considering other countries if I'd like to teach English.

I'll start looking into Thailand and if worse comes to worse, perhaps it's time to start considering Korea. It's just really too bad, Vietnam has been a country that I've always found intriguing (I'm sure thats the reason many of you eventually went to teach in Vietnam) I'd like to do more than just vacation there for a few months, but it seems that according to your advice, it's simply not advisable.

I'm going to keep my eye open regardless and throw out some applications to schools that interest me in Vietnam, the worst thing they can do is say no.

In regards to having a sticky for 'stupid newbie questions', that doesn't sound like a bad idea.

[LettersAthruZ]

[charlesmarlow]

You are only interested in a year, forget about discussing salaries etc. Your focus should be to just get by, living like a backpacker, whats wrong with that, you need about 800 usd per month, hotel in backpacking area, 300 bucks a month, 10 usd a day for food, beer 50 cents for a bottle,100 usd transportation, 100 usd visa fees etc, can do and many people are doing it, bring some cash with you and you can enjoy the exotic vietnam, dont even think of it as a job but an exotic adventure. If you have a bad month regarding teaching hours and little money move into a dormitory, 3 usd a day,includes free water, scrounge beer from other teachers backpackers, etc, if you completely out of money you can live in the park opposite the backpacker area with all the homeless africans, welcome to vietnam and hope to see you in the backpacker area but dont even think about asking for a free beer i already have 3 or 4 homeless teachers that i support with beer its called charity and solidarity.

[skarper]

Perhaps Korea is a better option for the OP than Vietnam. It really depends what you want and why you are considering EFL.

If you work hard in Korea and are not silly with your money you can save about 10K a year. That makes it kind of neutral on the career path. It won't help you when you go back to Canada or wherever on your CV but a few thousand in the bank will mitigate that.

I heard of a couple of Canadians who planned to be school teachers back home. They spent 5 years noses to the grindstone in Korea and lived like hermits - saved everything they could. The idea was to go back to Canada, find jobs in a small town and have enough cash saved to buy a house outright. I'm not sure if they made it happen in the end.

Korea is a very different life to Vietnam though. A lot of folks don't get along with having an 'owner' who owns you visa and provides accomodation. Lose your job = lose house, visa and income in the space of 24hours...And it's boring.

I firmly believe forewarned is forearmed. So I try to be honest if a little harsh in my posts. I see it this way - if a newbie is easily discouraged by a few negatives then they will NEVER have the grit to succeed here so I am doing them a favour in the long run. I don't think anything I have said on here is totally false, though others may have different opinions on the subjective stuff.

Often employers here seem to want freshfaced youngsters rather than older more experienced people - regardless of qualifications. Many threads discuss why this might be so.

[ExpatLuke]

I figured I'd chime it a bit... While in most cases it would be hard to find decent jobs with his credentials, it's certainly not impossible. I know a few teachers who don't even a degree that are teaching and living reasonably well. They aren't saving anything of course, but they are enjoying life here. I'd say it all depends on how well you sell yourself and the luck of the draw.

EDIT: After re-reading his credentials, I'd think he'd have no trouble finding a job that pays $1300 a month in Saigon and possibly Hanoi. Anywhere else would be more difficult.

[TRH]

As one who does not have a CELTA, I would like to recommend that anyone who is serious about teaching EFL in Vietnam take a CELTA class, whether in Vietnam or your home country. I say this not because I believe it is the only way to be qualified, but because it is the way to be qualified in the eyes of those who do the hiring in this country. There appears to be a fixation with degrees and diplomas here rather than grades and experience. It is too easy for them to just ask themselves do you have a CELTA or not?

In looking over the course descriptions of CELTA programs both here and in the US, I come away with the firm impression that the very real strength of the CELTA is that it has not much, but some hands on time with real students. This is what is lacking in many other ESL/EFL programs. In this respect, I feel that the CELTA is probably a superior program.

I have a 100 hour weekend based certificate just like the OP and I do believe that the quality of both the curriculum and the instructor were excellent. I also have a BEd. For those of you who are unfamiliar, a BEd qualifies me for permanent full time employment in any public school system in the US. It entails a year and a half of undergraduate classes from third year onward including weekly practicums tied to certain classes and a full semester of student teaching. The semester of student teaching is five months of full time in the classroom. The hands-on experience of a 4 week CELTA is described on the Cambridge website as six hours, nothing by any objective comparison. In addition, I had a full year teaching fourth grade before embarking on another career. I have experience that is directly applicable to the public school 50 student classroom that will become more and more a part of the business here going forward. I am sure there is no short term program that could adequately prepare someone for that scenario.

In sum, I am not claiming to be a great teacher but I certainly consider myself properly credentialed. However, in Vietnam without a CELTA, perhaps I am not. With my education and experience, I made 12 job applications over an eight week period before being hired about a year ago. I did not visit every school I could but I did apply at several that I really did not want to work for. I am very content with my present circumstance but I was getting pretty worried back then.

I think the problem is that those who are in a position to do the hiring are not in a position to evaluate other programs and experience. What is the value of teaching for two years in a city in the interior of China, or Brazil, or Mexico? What is the value of teaching immigrant adults with limited literacy in their own language in a community night school in the US, Britain or Australia? What is the value of a Bachelor's degree with a TESL major. Are these things discounted compared to a CELTA? I am afraid that in Vietnam they may be.

With respect to whether to take the CELTA at home or in Vietnam:

Vietnam's tuition is less expensive by a third and you will have some time to acclimate before seeking work. You would have a chance to deal directly with students whose first language is Vietnamese. Also the schools claim to help place students but there is some variation reported in how valid this is.

By contrast, a CELTA from the UK or the US would be more likely to have students from a variety of language backgrounds in the practicum groups. This is purely conjecture on my part, but I suspect that a CELTA from an English speaking country may be held in higher regard outside of Vietnam than one from HCMC or Hanoi. Also for those of the appropriate ages, living with parents can offset some of the higher tuition cost. I also note on the Cambridge site, that the CELTA course is available in some locations in the highly disparaged online format, albeit with a segment of supervised practice classroom time.

[Professional TEFLer]

I knew a guy who taught in Vietnam. He has no CELTA and no powerful degree, yet he made really good cash. Don't worry, head to HCMC and you will be fine.

[Oh My God]